Where do we go from here?

For non-partisan discussion ONLY. This policy will be strictly moderated and enforced. For those with eyes wide open, visionaries, lunatics, humorists (definitely!)

Moderator: Super Moderators

User avatar
SquidInk
________________
Posts: 5862
Joined: 03-15-2007 03:48 PM

Where do we go from here?

Post by SquidInk » 09-07-2012 07:03 PM

This quote appeared in another thread, and I wanted to expand on it.
... the [DNC] delegates in the convention hall went home in full revolutionary spirit. They don’t want to unite America. They want to conquer it.


There is a deepening divide among us.

On one side of that divide is the group refernced in the quote. If we believe the quote, they are out to 'conquer us' , and subject us all to government handouts. On the other side is another group of equally strange people. A group who seem to have very little interest in repairing the system, choosing instead to simply move on.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... EqItI1lS_g
Investors can begin construction in six months on three privately run cities in Honduras that will have their own police, laws, government and tax systems now that the government has signed a memorandum of agreement approving the project.

An international group of investors and government representatives signed the memorandum Tuesday for the project that some say will bring badly needed economic growth to this small Central American country and that at least one detractor describes as "a catastrophe."

[...]

The "model cities" will have their own judiciary, laws, governments and police forces. They also will be empowered to sign international agreements on trade and investment and set their own immigration policy.

Congress president Juan Hernandez said the investment group MGK will invest million to begin building basic infrastructure for the first model city near Puerto Castilla on the Caribbean coast. That first city would create 5,000 jobs over the next six months and up to 200,000 jobs in the future, Hernandez said. South Korea has given Honduras million to conduct a feasibility study, he said.
This is the future. Instead of one person one vote, it's one share one vote. It's the newest model - one where nation states have been supplanted, where you don't have any say in how the board of directors runs the city, but you have the option to move to a different corporate-city.

http://www.hondurasnews.com/honduras-ap ... EqJ5Y1lS_g
Michael Strong, an executive with the MKG Group that was granted this project, stated that the objective is to create a secure and prosperous community for Hondurans.
The development of the physical infrastructure laid out in phase one of the project will result in 5,000 new jobs, as well as 15,000 indirect new jobs.

[...]

Article 8. – The REDs must establish their own police force, and are authorized to perform the said function on their own, or through proxy. Therefore, for this purpose, the REDs may enter into cooperative agreements with other countries or regions.

The new Model Cities will have their own police force, and will enlist a highly-reputable policing authority to train police officers and hold the police leadership accountable for fair and effective policing. In addition, there will be an audit committee that is overseen by a Transparency Commission, which is an independent body, with the power to gather and evaluate such information and statistics on crime rate, and the efficiency in handling of crimes by the legal system, as well as police misconduct.


Who is Michael Strong? From his about page:
In order to create an educational system capable of improving the happiness and well-being of humanity, we need to reduce, and ultimately eliminate, government involvement in education at all levels, as well as government restrictions on the free pursuit of whatever occupation one desires. Government financing and regulation of education at all levels prevents the emergence of the more authentic, humane, and effective forms of education that we need. Thus around the world we need to move towards a principled separation of school and state, occupation and state, and research and state.
These are corporate anarchists. Plain and simple. They're here. Now.

Here is a list of people were appointed by the President of Honduras to the commission which will run the cities:
  • George Akerlof – Professor of Economics at the University of California at Berkeley, Senior Resident Scholar at the International Monetary Fund, and Nobel Prize Winner

    Harry Strachan – Former President of INCAE Business School, Director Emeritus at Bain & Co., and Managing Partner at Mesoamerica Partners and Foundation in Cost Rica

    Ong Boon Hwee – Former Chief Operating Officer of Singapore Power and Former Brigadier General in the Singapore Armed Forces

    Nancy Birdsall – President and Co-Founder of the Center for Global Development , former Senior Associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and former Executive Vice President at the Inter-American Development Bank

    Paul Romer (Commission Chair) – Professor of Economics at the New York University Stern School of Business
~*~

Look, this might be a good thing, or a bad thing. But let's be honest with ourselves regarding where the revolutions are being incubated. From the Cayman Island flagged party yachts, to the Swiss banks, to the Chinese Foxxconn labor pools - I get the distinct feeling they've already moved on. The US is just another cookie jar to them.

I'm happy for them. I'm also fairly certain that they won't think twice about funneling American resources to build their nation-cities.

Related: http://www.red.hn/
Last edited by SquidInk on 09-11-2012 08:37 AM, edited 1 time in total.
For if it profit, none dare call it Treason.

User avatar
Riddick
Pirate
Posts: 12210
Joined: 11-01-2002 03:00 AM
Location: SE WI
Contact:

Post by Riddick » 09-07-2012 08:39 PM

Modern day fiefdoms run by corporations...?

Oh well. Despite what Voidists might say, something IS better than nothing, I guess (he says with tongue-in-cheek) -

I for one welcome our new Feudal overlords.

User avatar
Diogenes
Pirate
Posts: 5784
Joined: 07-14-2011 03:01 PM

Post by Diogenes » 09-07-2012 10:39 PM

Quickly "Galt Gulch" comes to mind.

Sounds like the term "seccesh" will become popular again.
A man's character is his fate

User avatar
SquidInk
________________
Posts: 5862
Joined: 03-15-2007 03:48 PM

Post by SquidInk » 09-07-2012 11:14 PM

So these people don't believe in American exceptionalism I take it? Maybe Honduran exceptionalism? Cayman?

Let's stop pretending.

Let's at least be truthful with ourselves.
For if it profit, none dare call it Treason.

User avatar
SquidInk
________________
Posts: 5862
Joined: 03-15-2007 03:48 PM

Post by SquidInk » 09-07-2012 11:16 PM

Possibly related: showthread.php?threadid=5463

Also possibly related: showthread.php?threadid=40150
For if it profit, none dare call it Treason.

User avatar
SquidInk
________________
Posts: 5862
Joined: 03-15-2007 03:48 PM

Post by SquidInk » 09-07-2012 11:23 PM

Diogenes wrote: "Galt Gulch"
The craziest part is this: if you replace a nation-state with a corporation, it solves nothing. Martial strength versus commercial strength. It's coercion either way. These 'Gulchers' just want the windfall for themselves - they are essentially a competitor to existing government rather than an opposing force.
Last edited by SquidInk on 09-07-2012 11:27 PM, edited 1 time in total.
For if it profit, none dare call it Treason.

User avatar
SquidInk
________________
Posts: 5862
Joined: 03-15-2007 03:48 PM

Post by SquidInk » 09-07-2012 11:31 PM

http://www.economist.com/node/21541391

In fact:
Honduras Shrugged

DISGUSTED by an increasingly invasive state, America's most capable entrepreneurs retreat to Galt's Gulch, a libertarian commune. That was the theme of Ayn Rand's magnum opus, “Atlas Shrugged”, a sacred text for libertarians ever since it was published in 1957. Actually creating such an enclave has been the dream of many fans of small government (or of none at all). Several have had a try at it, but their efforts have always ended in disaster (see table).
Last edited by SquidInk on 09-07-2012 11:34 PM, edited 1 time in total.
For if it profit, none dare call it Treason.

User avatar
Diogenes
Pirate
Posts: 5784
Joined: 07-14-2011 03:01 PM

Post by Diogenes » 09-07-2012 11:33 PM

SquidInk wrote: The craziest part is this: if you replace a nation-state with a corporation, it solves nothing. Martial strength versus commercial strength. It's coercion either way. These 'Gulchers' just want the windfall for themselves - they are essentially a competitor to existing government rather than an opposing force.


I understand what you are saying here and the prior FF quotes are somewhat sureal going so far back.

About 50 years is about it if not sooner:(
A man's character is his fate

User avatar
kbot
Pirate
Posts: 6957
Joined: 03-12-2008 05:44 AM

Post by kbot » 09-08-2012 02:26 AM

SquidInk wrote: The craziest part is this: if you replace a nation-state with a corporation, it solves nothing. Martial strength versus commercial strength. It's coercion either way. These 'Gulchers' just want the windfall for themselves - they are essentially a competitor to existing government rather than an opposing force.


Yes, but placed in historical terms, corporations have been a part of this country even before its inception - Mass Bay Company, Plymouth Colony, and Jamestown, to name just a few, were in fact set-up primarily as investment schemes with backers back in England. The colonists themselves were just a means to an end for the investors. Same can be said for the Dutch colonial investor in New Amsterdam/ New York and any number of colonies. Look at what France did in New France (Canada), with the king setting-up his Filles-du-Roi program, essentially providing dowries to young French women in order to have them shipped to Canada to keep the fur trade going. This is nothing new. Some came to the new world for religious freedom. Some came to make money.

cherry
Pirate
Posts: 5704
Joined: 05-28-2004 05:15 PM

Post by cherry » 09-08-2012 09:02 AM

I just take it one day at a time. :o

User avatar
SquidInk
________________
Posts: 5862
Joined: 03-15-2007 03:48 PM

Post by SquidInk » 09-08-2012 10:06 AM

Riddick wrote:
I for one welcome our new Feudal overlords.
They won't be your overlords. You're not invited. They built it, not you. See, that's the hilarious thing about the embrace of the randian 'intellectual pyramid'.

At the end of the day, after all of the bloodsport has played out, virtually everyone is a parasite - even those who originally thought they were pretty high up on the old pyramid! It starts with 'welfare queens', but soon enough, if you're not plotting a walled commercial city-state in central America (if you just work for a living, or rep somebody else's product & especially if you're a disgusting, pathetic employee), then you too are part of the problem.

In the new idolatry, you're an 'indomitable entrepreneur' or a parasite. That's it. Talk about 'true believers'.

Maybe related: showthread.php?threadid=44942
Last edited by SquidInk on 09-08-2012 11:00 AM, edited 1 time in total.
For if it profit, none dare call it Treason.

User avatar
SquidInk
________________
Posts: 5862
Joined: 03-15-2007 03:48 PM

Post by SquidInk » 09-08-2012 10:15 AM

kbot wrote: Yes, but placed in historical terms, corporations have been a part of this country even before its inception - Mass Bay Company, Plymouth Colony, and Jamestown, to name just a few, were in fact set-up primarily as investment schemes with backers back in England. The colonists themselves were just a means to an end for the investors. Same can be said for the Dutch colonial investor in New Amsterdam/ New York and any number of colonies. Look at what France did in New France (Canada), with the king setting-up his Filles-du-Roi program, essentially providing dowries to young French women in order to have them shipped to Canada to keep the fur trade going. This is nothing new. Some came to the new world for religious freedom. Some came to make money.
You're right. That, however, is not the rhetoric of today. Today, the superior 'creator/builder' class paints itself as the traditionalist, all American team. They place themselves on the game board of public perception as the counter-force to the scruffy, unclean 'revolutionaries' who wish to tear down America.

Look past the rhetoric to find the real revolution; to find out who actually harbors contempt for the American system (you know, democracy). I'll give you a hint: the real revolutionaries have managed to get the Supreme Court of the US to define a bundle of paperwork as a 'person'. They have managed to remove many of the legal barriers between themselves and the wealth of generations - hard won, family by family, and long squirrled way in 'accounts' to be passed down to children and grand children. They have killed without conscience or regret in a manner which would have been deemed 'genocide' if perpetrated by a sole individual. They have thrived in an ecosystem of purposefully manufactured chaos, all the while hiding behind fictitious strawmen in order to remain un-liable for their actions.

The putrid scruffy people are a counter revolutionary phenomenon.

All of this is antithetical to the American ideal. Not the revolutions themselves, but their dishonest natures.

Lately, in reviewing business expenses, the 'creators' see that dealing with the foibles of democracy has become too costly. Why should the 'creator' have to modify his behavior to suit 'the people'? If the creator finds inspiration in the sacking and burning of the city, why should a filthy cadre of parasitic nobodies have a say in his business? If only the creators could conjure a large flood.

At day's end, flood or no flood, it all happens on the bottom line. Better ROI if they head down to a questionably governed nation, and purchase the right to create a private world where their egos can run amok with impunity; where they're in charge of the creation mythos, and they are never subject to the will of the parasitic people. There are no people, only 'associates' & they're paid in scrip. The ultimate 'at will' existence. Shares rather than votes are bought and sold, and it's all so very efficient. One share, one vote. Easy.

At this point, I'm not calling any of this bad. In fact, I have openly discussed relocating on this very forum, as I too believe it may be too late to bring about the required reforms here. I am simply fed up with the inability of the 'builder/creator class' to be honest about their thoughts and intentions. Particularly in their quests for public office.
Last edited by SquidInk on 09-10-2012 09:50 AM, edited 1 time in total.
For if it profit, none dare call it Treason.

User avatar
Diogenes
Pirate
Posts: 5784
Joined: 07-14-2011 03:01 PM

Post by Diogenes » 09-08-2012 12:24 PM

Simple queston I know but are we looking for Utopia - something no matter the formula - which simply does not and never did exist?

Isn't life simply too complicated with too many avenues for manipulation and corruption.

Does it all come down to creating one's own environment and hope to be able to hunker down within that sort of bubble?

They will start to take me away after these posts but just reading about how the Rochester police being exempt from the red light cameras (Drudge).

In my simple mind it occurs to me if we have created an oligarchy just within the Rochester PD, elites if you will who are exempt from the same laws (so stated for safety purposes to protect the folks) from the little people - well you/we just can't get away from it.

I hope I am making sense:confused:
A man's character is his fate

User avatar
Riddick
Pirate
Posts: 12210
Joined: 11-01-2002 03:00 AM
Location: SE WI
Contact:

Post by Riddick » 09-08-2012 07:48 PM

Y'know, cherry, I gotta say the one day at a time philosophy IS a darn good one. As Dio says, so much in life is complicated enough as it is without projecting all possible paths or avenues the whole of society may or may not take, eh -!

That said? This is just the sort of thing I'd expect one might find discussed at length on C2C. Current host(s) aside, imagine how Art would have handled it - Libertarian that he is, beyond the usual UFO/Paranormal topics I can't think of much else that would peak his interest more than something like this!

With what Squid, kbot and y'all have presented thus far (and absent Art's input), would you believe Yours Truly's conjured-up some extrapolatory postulation of this li'l ol' topic for further discussion here?

To start things off: Let's say as 'choices,' present-day civilization world-wide is presented with two ostensibly distinct yet more-or-less equally unsustainable paths - For all their talk of 'fixes', in reality Big Gov doesn't care about system repair - AND neither does Big Corp...

IMHO the only 'fix' that's in is that taken separately or in-tandem, either way when whichever chosen route (or should that be rout?) of societal 'progress' ultimately does grind the global system down to nothing but so much dust and debris, the Pathocrats in charge of the Big Gov/Big Corp axis at the time will absolutely see to it that not they, but rather 'The People' of America and elsewhere bear the full brunt of civilization's epoch-shattering halt.

At the same time, personally I find that the notion of moving away from overarching centralized planning and intrusive big government DOES has a certain appeal in principle - OTOH, I find myself not at all terribly trusting of the idea that cities would best be run by an essentially accountable-to-no-one consortium of certifiable corporate types!

But perhaps I'm being too harsh here? Insomuch as people could reside in the Big Corp-city of their choice, though not always easier done than said folks could 'vote' with their feet and move out if they don't like living in a particular burg - although with certifiable types most likely dominating the leadership landscape across-the-board, finding a suitable substitute could be problematic -

Even UPON discovery of an acceptable alternative city, then there's the whole issue of whether that city would be welcoming of 'just any' immigrants, e.g. much as a family's desire to live there may not meet the city's needs - will their collective contribution outweigh any additional services their residency might entail?

As the rule for new prospects, I'd imagine in virtually all cases rather than a fully-open policy, the door will move only an inch wide with a chain across it to start - if deemed worthy of entry then after a 'trial period', upon a finding of no net 'value added' and the accompanying result of no 'regular' occupancy permit being issued, citizens would be expected to move on...

But it doesn't end there. "Regular" occupancy would be an 'at-will' permit proposition, said will being primarily that of the burg's Big-Corp controllers. (...Don't want surprises? Get out the specs and read the fine print before you sign up...) Folks possessing permits could suddenly find their right to remain within the city limits has been rescinded due to not meeting minimum municipal productivity / performance expectations at ALL TIMES. In that sense, in the future living itself is a round-the-clock job --!

You think unemployment's bad NOW? HA! Just wait 'til folks have to justify their very existence not just year to year, month-to-month, day-to-day OR hour-by-hour but minute-by-minute and quite possibly even second-to-second in the New Sociopathic Order of corporate cities... Hey, Folks - Hey Folks! Whachoo gonna do - whachoo gonna do when they're done with you?

It may not be that the NSO merely chews up and spits out folks - As it is, they'll NEVER have any use for some people. But never fear! Much as it is used today by the Big Gov/Big Corp axis, the 'safety net' WILL still be here... to manage the surplus population... But rather than being a comfort for them, the excess will find that any concerns of safety will be for those NOT caught in it.

For instance, say you've been rejected by every city. Where are you going to live? More critical to Big-Corp's bottom line, how do they keep track of you and your undesirable ilk? Heck, they might usher you out, but somehow you sneak back in and move in with relatives or friends. Can't have that. Security risk, y'know.

What to do? Easy peasy answer. Every legit citizen gets chipped. A strategically placed network of scanners around the city monitor warm bodies 24/7/365 - don't have an implant, or it's not legit? You're FN nicked, me old beauty! Whether it's centurions or flying drones that lead the way, it's out of the city and off you go, bro.

That takes care of the controller's immediate concerns, but what about you? Locked out of cities as you are, how will you spend the rest of your days? What about food, water, shelter, clothing? If you're lucky, you might find yourself a cave, or if you're good at improvising, you might build some sort of crude dwelling... Now all you need is to discover an unpolluted H2O source, and uncover a reliable cache of edible non-toxic wild growing yummy for your tummy goodies, like juniper berries or 'shrooms or nuts or whatever -

If you're not good at foraging and hunting isn't your thing, the occasional road kill might keep you going for a while, with the added bonus being if you save up the pelts and can somehow stitch them together, you'll have the latest in outcast overcoat fashions eh...! Still, despite your best efforts at survival, what might the prospect of starvation and exposure to the elements lead you and others in your position to do in desperation?

"Hey! Look at all those 'legit' citizens traveling between cities. They for sure got clothes. They may even have brung some food along with them - If not? Oh, what the heck! We've already been summarily rejected and ejected from all those very models of a modern megatropolis. It may be taboo, but boy one good rock toss to the windshield and BANGO-! HUMAN: It's what's for dinner!"

Of course, that's all pure poppycock, isn't it? Really, things will never get THAT bad - Legit folks will have no worry that they'll be eaten on their way to and from the various Big-Corp cities. Yessiree Bob, one way or another, undesirables outside the "model cities" will be 'taken care' of -- Hey, somebody's gotta keep those far-out of ANY city-sight 'Soylent' factories humming away! The real beauty of that setup is, even when they're too feeble to stand on the line, in 'retirement' the factories' grimy old grunts can still be made useful as part of the plant's product line.

But seriously, folks and all exaggeration aside: as you say Squid, as implemented I see this corporate-city concept as being no solution at all to the current system's set of serious shortcomings - Yet, instead of being just the Same Old Sh!t shuffled around a bit, if made more flexible by way of some simple 'tweaks' to the concept (for example, allowing for addition of competing municipalities managed by potentially more compassionate/less psychopathically-minded non-corporate small-business types, rather than exclusively contracting out control of model cities to coldly calculating cut-throat Big Corp anarchists), I'd be WAY more cheery about the chances of any outcome being ANYTHING other than craptastically dystopian.

I'd really like to have a feeling of optimism here and a sense that this could make for some positive waves. Thing is, so much as TPTB and their plans are concerned, I'd not expect to find much interest in ANY sort of tweaks or substitutions to the model than might threaten the continued obscene concentration of the majority of the world's wealth in anything but the hands of a few oligarchs...

Taking something of a cue from a scene in Kelly's Heroes here? Tank-team commander Oddball might think me a negative nelly for saying it, but as it is I think coming from a mechanic Moriarty's assertion there takes the edge in any discussion about positive versus negative waves concerning this concept -

It's like how he described to Oddball if a tank is having trouble, no matter how positive you think about it, if the problem is it needs replacement parts and there's absolutely NO effen way you'll be getting 'em, if it hasn't already it's only a matter of time before that tank conks out for good -

On the other side of that, if a tank doesn't tick like it used to and you can't or won't make needed repairs or modifications? Before it totally winds down, could well be time to look for a whole new tank OF A totally different make - 'n maybe even consider a change in course that'll steer you away from more trouble instead of head-long into it!

IMHO? The global Pathocratic money-machine is in similar trouble, with many Gov sectors either already malfunctioning badly or close to being disabled. Either on a national, regional/state OR municipal scale, simply swapping critical functionality over to the Corp side of the axis is in no way a suitable replacement, as it too has basically the same scaling problem - with parts all around shaking loose and worse from misuse, abuse AND overuse -

But none of that will stop TPTB from coming up with ideas like the corporate-city to squeeze some more life out of their Big Gov/Big Corp model... really, the way they're doing it, basically staying a course into no-less iceberg infested investment waters isn't it just like swapping duties on an economic Titanic?

Cap't to the Crew: Damn the 'bergs, Full steam ahead! (Make sure there's lifeboats at the ready and well-stocked with caviar and champagne for the Ship's officers and company execs when we hit the ice... And make DOUBLY SURE the passengers stay ignorant of what's going on 'til we're well away from the disaster area.)

Whack-a-doodle do!

Hey Now Folks! The whole effn system is out-of-balance, so whachoo gonna do? At this point, depending on where you are socially and economically, you probably understand quite well at a very basic level it's already done with you -

...So much as that IS basically TRUE, THEN THE question is - Are YOU done with IT?

Possibly Related Viewing:


Direct Link: https://youtu.be/oyL-f-SU_XA
Last edited by Riddick on 09-21-2016 12:11 AM, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SquidInk
________________
Posts: 5862
Joined: 03-15-2007 03:48 PM

Post by SquidInk » 09-09-2012 11:21 AM

Possibly related? http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/fo ... r-drug-war
Critics from across the political spectrum are outraged after the Obama administration announced that it was unconstitutionally sending 200 U.S. Marines to Guatemala under the guise of fighting the drug war. According to officials, the American troops were deployed as part of “Operation Martillo,” a multi-national squad of soldiers and law-enforcement personnel supposedly aimed at countering narcotics trafficking throughout Central America.

[...]

“I’m sure there are more drugs floating around the U.S. than in Guatemala, so would it be permissible and acceptable for another country to send its heavily armed troops here to fight their own war on drugs?” wondered popular libertarian analyst and commentator Gary D. Barnett. “The more likely scenario is that the U.S. is making sure that most of these drugs get delivered safely to the U.S.” Another scenario cited by analysts was knocking out certain less-favored cartels to eliminate competition.
For if it profit, none dare call it Treason.

Post Reply

Return to “Pirates and Skeptics -P&G, etc”