Obama approves building mosque near WTC

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Obama approves building mosque near WTC

Post by kbot » 08-14-2010 04:22 AM

OK, is it just me? Am I being overly sensitive to the issue? Yesterday president Obama came out and declared that he approves of the building of a mosque near the spot where the World Trade Center stood, and where over 3,000 lives were taken in an attack on this country by Muslim extremists.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38698500/ns ... ite_house/

Maybe it's me, but, my understanding is that in a number of Muslim countries, Christian churches are not even allowed. Their "law", such as it is, allegedly "allows" the practice, depending on the country. The rule tends towards the closing of Christian churches and the expulsion, and sometimes torture, of Christian practictioners, especially those who openly practice their faith.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 15,00.html

This is in sharp contrast to Obama who, not only wants this country to allow Muslims to practice their faith - which I have no problem with personally - but also to erect a mosque very near where their countrymen killed 3,000 on American soil, presumably replete with the traditional five-times daily adhan (call to prayer) within earshot of those mourning their loss at Ground Zero.

I dunno. Perhaps it's just me, but, personally I find this a slap in the face - and I voted for Obama. Perhaps if Muslim countries reciprocated, and allowed the open practice of Christianity in their countries I would feel differently.

When I read reports in my local Diocesan newspaper describing persecution of Christians around the world, or in annual reports such as this:

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/pd ... Report.pdf

I have to stop and ask myself "Just what point is it that President Obama is attempting to make?" That Islam is tolerant? Doesn't appear so, not from this report at least, and certainly what is reported in the news.....(if one cares to pay attention and acknowledge the facts). I ust have to shake my head and wonder if Obama really thinks that this is going to help him or the Democrats win re-election? Sure, in theory, this sounds good - a veritable Constitutionally-protected right, wrapped-up as all "huggy-feeling/ Kumbaya/ I'd like to give the world a Coke" sensibility with the net effect of rubbing our country's collective noses in it over our loss - and don't you even dare to ask.

I dunno, maybe it's just me.........
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Post by Cherry Kelly » 08-14-2010 09:13 AM

I was very angry when I heard this.

How insensitive!

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Post by SquidInk » 08-14-2010 09:32 AM

I would need more details on the site's proximity to ground zero, but on the face of it, I'd say bad idea.

Very bad idea.
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Post by Linnea » 08-14-2010 01:33 PM

...from guardian uk
Ground Zero mosque plans 'fuelling anti-Muslim protests across US'

Religious leaders warn of Islamophobia surge with hate speech and opposition to new Islamic centres across America

The battle over plans to build a mosque near the site of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in New York is fuelling a surge in anti-Muslim protests across the US, including opposition to new Islamic centres from California to Georgia.

Religious leaders and civil rights activists warn that a tide of Islamophobia that has swept the country since the destruction of the twin towers is being heightened by political exploitation of the New York dispute before nationwide elections and is increasingly bound up with hostility to immigrants and other forms of racism.

They say the outpouring of condemnation at the "outrage" of a mosque close to the "hallowed ground" of the World Trade Centre site also goes hand in hand with the increasing acceptability of what they describe as hate speech.

A Florida church, Dove World Outreach Centre, is planning a "burn the Qur'an" day on September 11 and has already outraged Muslims by planting a sign on its front lawn that reads: Islam is the Devil.
Yes. A bad idea. And, an issue ripe for political exploitation... Unfortunately, there is a growing hatred and intolerance in the US for many, many culturally diverse issues. If we do not walk the high ground, things will eventually spiral out of control. The more intolerance - the more balkanization - the faster we fall.

Which is probably the point Obama is making...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/au ... lamophobia

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Post by Cherry Kelly » 08-14-2010 01:48 PM

On the news - the mayor offered other land to build the mosque - away from ground zero. They should take the mayor up on that.

With the economy and all unemployment and associated problems going on right now - it is not the time to make more people angry.

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Post by Linnea » 08-14-2010 02:55 PM

Now that seems a reasonable solution. Probably too reasonable. Wish this could happen.

And 'angry people' - puts me in mind of the mobs in Paris in the late 1700s. We can do better than that here - and did - in the late 1700s.

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Post by kbot » 08-14-2010 07:03 PM

SquidInk wrote: I would need more details on the site's proximity to ground zero, but on the face of it, I'd say bad idea.

Very bad idea.


Two blocks away. And from what I have been able to gather, there are already somewhere in the area of 100 mosques in New York already. Guess how many Christian churches (of any denomination) there are in Saudi Arabia? I'll save yo the trouble of doing the research. There are none. Just as theye are no synagogues nor temples. They are banned.

So much for tolerance......
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Post by kbot » 08-14-2010 07:10 PM

Linnea wrote: ...from guardian uk

Yes. A bad idea. And, an issue ripe for political exploitation... Unfortunately, there is a growing hatred and intolerance in the US for many, many culturally diverse issues. If we do not walk the high ground, things will eventually spiral out of control. The more intolerance - the more balkanization - the faster we fall.

Which is probably the point Obama is making...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/au ... lamophobia


I agree, this can spiral out of control.

But, I think that before lecturing us on tolerence, President Obama should at least either be more honest and open about Islam and how churches and synagogues are banned In Saudi Arabia, and are being closed across the Muslim world generally - or note that a large number of mosques already exist in New York, and maybe it's time for the Muslim work to reciprocate and allow for churches and synagogues to open in their lands before allowing a mosque so close to the World Trade Center,
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Post by kbot » 08-14-2010 07:31 PM

Just for the heck of it, access the map function on google's web site, type in "mosque, new york, new york" and see how many show-up. It's not as if there are none in the city.

And I begrudging the building of another mosque? Not if the population supports it. But does it need to be so close to the WTC?

And, again, considering the number of mosques in New York - and across the country as well - according to this report, there were 1200 mosques nationwide in 2000:

http://www.allied-media.com/AM/

the US has already exceeded the number of churches an synagogues for the entier Muslim world..........
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Post by kbot » 08-14-2010 07:38 PM

So, President Obama had to make another speech today to remind us that we are a land of religious tolerence.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 9424.story

Too bad the same can't be said of the Muslim world......
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Post by Kaztronic » 08-14-2010 08:59 PM

A Mosque near Ground Zero in NYC - a Mosque intentionally located near Ground Zero no less. At first glance, it sounds like an awfully insensitive idea (at best). However, looking a bit deeper in to this, you can't help but realize that the opposition to the building of this Mosque is driven almost entirely by emotion. It's certainly understandable (and I admit, I am having a difficult time with it myself), but at the end of the day those emotions are not what government decisions should be based upon.

If not emotion, then upon what is the opposition based? Is their any information that suggests this Mosque might become a breeding ground for future terrorists? Beyond that possible outcome, what grounds do we have to prevent this Mosque from being built?

As we embarked upon the war against terror, President Bush stated: "We are not at war with Islam", President Obama has stated the same as well. It is worth inserting that statement and truth in to this discussion, we are not at war with Islam - we are instead at war with Muslim fanatics, two entirely different things. We cannot lose sight of that, yet we are doing just that when we work to prevent the building of a Mosque in downtown Manhattan.

While facing my own torn feelings on this issue over the last couple months, I've kept returning to the following question:

"Why is America great?"

Our freedoms make us great. The concept of a free, diverse nation of opportunity for all people made this country a shining light for millions around the world.

Since 9/11, we have watched (sometimes protested, sometimes supported) our government, as it has slowly eroded many of our rights - not to mention the very concept that America was a nation ruled by a moral, just government that would defend freedom at all costs. Reality is, those concepts and freedoms are at stake when it comes to this issue as well.

Prior to 9/11 there would not be a problem with building a Mosque in downtown Manhattan - should we prevent it from happening now, it will simply be another underlined victory for the bastards who attacked us, because we will have stepped away from a freedom we previously would have viewed as sacred.

In my opinion, President Obama has stood up for what makes America great by making the statements he has about the building of this Mosque - and I applaud him for taking the more difficult path on this issue. But again, it has been our willingness to embrace the difficult, to tread down that path that has underlined our greatness, and our steadfast refusal to sacrifice what our nation stands for.

We must not sacrifice downtown New York City by changing the rules for one particular religion, in one particular area. The very concept stands in stark opposition to the promise our country stands for.
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Post by SquidInk » 08-14-2010 11:35 PM

To me it's no different than the Americans building a complex the size of the Vatican in Baghdad, and then among other things, burning 147 tons of trash a day in an open pit - causing respiratory illness throughout the city. Not good. Not right.

Camp Anaconda is a very bad idea, as well.

But Camp Anaconda (a sort of holy ground for the modern US military machine) was the result of a "victory " in a "war" - I guess that's the big difference, right?
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Post by Raggedyann » 08-14-2010 11:39 PM

The U.S.A. has a history of leading by example. Except for the odd blip on the radar, especially through the Bush years, much good has come of this throughout the world. Why close hearts and minds and stop now?

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Post by kbot » 08-14-2010 11:46 PM

SquidInk wrote: To me it's no different than the Americans building a complex the size of the Vatican in Baghdad,


The difference being, of course, that if this were the Vatican, or any other non-Islamic religious edifice, it wouldn't be allowed in most Muslim countries.

Again, maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but I am also more than a little tired of others telling Americans what we "should be doing" when they are not willing to do the same. And, again, there are already 100 mosques in New York, and offers have been made to put one anywhere else in the city except near the site of the WTC.
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Post by Kaztronic » 08-14-2010 11:50 PM

Here's the thing: is it not possible that this Mosque can be used for the good? As opposed to just being a "slap in the face"?

I mean, who is to say that the people who choose to attend prayers at this Mosque will not be doing so out of solidarity with Americans? Making a statement that this city will rebuild, and that this particular congregation (or whatever the term may be) rejects outright those who attacked America on 9/11 is a possibility here, no?

Are we not jumping to conclusions when it comes to the purpose of this Mosque, when it comes to the motivations of those who will choose to pray there? Are there not other possibilities? Why are we assuming the worst?

Let me pose another question, were Americans who practice Islam not also affected by the events of 9/11? Did Muslims not also die in the towers? Are we not insulting their sacrifice as well when we say that their religion cannot be practiced in a house of worship located within X number of blocks of Ground Zero?

Their is a part of me that continues to rage with anger about 9/11. I remain shaken by that day. That part of me does not want to see this Mosque built, does not believe it is the right thing to do - but that part of me is wrong. That emotionally driven part of me does a disservice to those who died on 9/11, it dishonors their death. Why did they die? Because they lived in America, and why was America attacked? Because of what we stand for. Those Americans died because we had the freedom to build a Mosque anywhere, a Church anywhere, a Synagogue anywhere.

Hard as it is to say, I personally think that it honors those who died on 9/11 to see this Mosque built - to show the world, and our attackers that we continue to cherish the rights those innocent victims died for.

When the United States Of America begins to tell people of a particular religion that you cannot build your house of worship near a particular location because it makes people upset, well, that's when you know that something has gone terribly wrong and we've forgotten, or are willing to sacrifice a crucial part of our national values.
Last edited by Kaztronic on 08-14-2010 11:58 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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