Palin Claiming "Blood Libel" - are you kidding me?

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Raggedyann
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Post by Raggedyann » 01-18-2011 02:37 AM

lazarus long wrote: since art bell tossed off his "wingnut" remark on-air, i've been a little sensitive to that remark. sorry. but honestly, i've figured out that there's very little going on anywhere that our government doesn't have its nasty little fingers into. i'm not conspiracy minded, i'm open-minded. knowing what we know, is there any dirty deed that you could honestly look at and say, "no way, our government wouldn't do that"?
lastly, i must point out that logic and empathy tell us that fear-mongering is dangerous. i have seen no evidence to suggest that this shooter was influenced by anything but his own completely unchecked madness. exactly what particular fear-mongering would you be referring to? the current political climate? conspiracy theories?

I'm really glad you understand where I'm coming from.

Art went off the rails on the wingnut comment because he lumped a large quantity of his fan base into being wingnuts. Mistake! The jury is still out on 9/11 theory for me. In fairness to Art though, I believe he was coming from a deep love of his country. Life has been good to Art. Many successful people attribute their success to the freedoms of American life and the opportunities that enable them to achieve the American dream, which in turn inspires a deep loyalty to their country. Therefore, I don't think he could fathom that his own Gov could be responsible for this hideous event. And a Republican Gov, that he supported. A knee jerk reaction in a time of sorrow, anger, disbelief, and much confusion.

The Glenn Beck tirades re FEMA camps and all the rest of it, is fear mongering for political gain. For most of us it's amusing and maybe even food for thought for some but to those of us who are unstable, it manifests as obsession. I prefer news that is factual and realistic. God knows there is enough negative $hit happening in the world around us without having to dream up unsubstantiated fear and negativity. It's all gone just too far for comfort.
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Post by lazarus long » 01-18-2011 02:46 AM

it's funny that this comes up as i was just listening to an old art bell the other night. he was just learning about the law allowing the government to do basically any kind of chemical and/or biological testing on the populace without their knowledge or consent. this was, i believe, circa 1996. and then, all of a sudden, he was unable to believe, unable to even entertain the notion even when faced with evidence that this same government was lying about what happened on 9-11. i just can't understand that. oh, well. off-topic mode ended. sorry.

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Post by Raggedyann » 01-18-2011 02:52 AM

lazarus long wrote: it's funny that this comes up as i was just listening to an old art bell the other night. he was just learning about the law allowing the government to do basically any kind of chemical and/or biological testing on the populace without their knowledge or consent. this was, i believe, circa 1996. and then, all of a sudden, he was unable to believe, unable to even entertain the notion even when faced with evidence that this same government was lying about what happened on 9-11. i just can't understand that. oh, well. off-topic mode ended. sorry.

Talking about stupid government decisions on the radio is one thing. Being hit in the face with an act of war that killed 3,000 people is an awful reality to suddenly have to face, outside the realm of entertainment.

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Post by lazarus long » 01-18-2011 03:07 AM

Raggedyann wrote: Talking about stupid government decisions on the radio is one thing. Being hit in the face with an act of war that killed 3,000 people is an awful reality to suddenly have to face, outside the realm of entertainment.

i think that we might have to agree to disagree on a few items. i would hardly call making it legal to test exotic new weapons on the ignorant general populace simply a "stupid decision." jmho. as for the "act of war," it was, once again imo, one committed AT LEAST with our governments knowledge. it did, however, allow us to enter a war in the middle east as well as here and abroad with our fabulous new "war on terror." i'll give it a rest in this thread now.

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Post by kbot » 01-18-2011 06:47 AM

lazarus long wrote: i think that we might have to agree to disagree on a few items. i would hardly call making it legal to test exotic new weapons on the ignorant general populace simply a "stupid decision." jmho. as for the "act of war," it was, once again imo, one committed AT LEAST with our governments knowledge. it did, however, allow us to enter a war in the middle east as well as here and abroad with our fabulous new "war on terror." i'll give it a rest in this thread now.


The ability of the government to test weapons (or anything else for that matter) on an unwitting public is nothing new, and dates to at least the 1940s with the syphilis testing on blacks, the nuclear weapons testing in the 50s and early 60s, the LSD experiments and the spraying of Minneapolis and other cities in the 60s. I thik that there was another series of tests conducted at the old Bridgewater State Hospital in Bridgewater Mass back in the 30s on patients with psychological issues - your basic "captive" audience that no one was going to believe anyway........

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Post by HB3 » 01-18-2011 02:39 PM

Actually, for a certain segment of the population, it was all too easy for them to believe the American government caused 9/11.

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Post by HB3 » 01-18-2011 02:47 PM

Raggedyann wrote:
The Glenn Beck tirades re FEMA camps and all the rest of it, is fear mongering for political gain.


Here's another qualifier -- "and all the rest of it" -- that's shouldering a heck of a lot of hidden work. What is "all the rest of it"? When it comes right down to it, it's all the non-liberal political positions being demonized as hateful, like immigration reform. It's the "all the rest of it" that the left appears to have been chomping at the bit, ready and waiting with a pre-written "narrative" to aggressively suppress, charging ahead even when the discrepancy between reality and their pre-written narrative had become totally ludicrous.
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Post by SquidInk » 01-18-2011 03:33 PM

HB3 wrote: Actually, for a certain segment of the population, it was all too easy for them to believe the American government caused 9/11.


Clarify... which segment(s) was(were) all too willing?

The schizophrenics?
The 'Bush haters'?
The 'killers'?
The 'goofballs'?
The 'wingnuts"?
The 'anarchists'?
The 'Islamic sympathisers'?
The 'commies'?
The 'progressives'?
The 'domestic terrorists'? :D

I am none of those, but I am certainly willing to believe the American Federal Government's unceasing hegemonic pursuits can be counted among the causes of that tragedy. I will admit to having no rock solid evidence at the moment, but give it a few decades. Sixty years of highly questionable foreign policy (as a best case scenario - it's more like 160+) can not be discounted as one cause of many, indirect as it may be.

Related:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... ogoncom-20

This behavior creates enemies, even if the intent is noble - which I assure you it is not.
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Post by megman » 01-18-2011 03:39 PM

kbot wrote: The ability of the government to test weapons (or anything else for that matter) on an unwitting public is nothing new, and dates to at least the 1940s with the syphilis testing on blacks, the nuclear weapons testing in the 50s and early 60s, the LSD experiments and the spraying of Minneapolis and other cities in the 60s. I thik that there was another series of tests conducted at the old Bridgewater State Hospital in Bridgewater Mass back in the 30s on patients with psychological issues - your basic "captive" audience that no one was going to believe anyway........


Let's not forget blankets for the Indians infected with Smallpox in 1763.......
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Post by HB3 » 01-18-2011 03:56 PM

megman wrote: Let's not forget blankets for the Indians infected with Smallpox in 1763.......


This, apparently, is a myth, and a very good example of what I'm talking about -- a psychological predisposition to believe the worst about one's country. I'm not saying that's all it is, of course. But I think it is a discernible phenomenon with a certain "etiology." Or a Canadian predisposition to believe the worst about America, which is endemic at this point (kidding!).
Clarify... which segment(s) was(were) all too willing?

The schizophrenics?
The 'Bush haters'?
The 'killers'?
The 'goofballs'?
The 'wingnuts"?
The 'anarchists'?
The 'Islamic sympathisers'?
The 'commies'?
The 'progressives'?
The 'domestic terrorists'?
Well, at least some of that. :D Seriously, in the post-Vietnam, paranoid era, the difference between, well, schizophrenic "grand unified field theory" imaginings and legitimate insight into American foreign policy skullduggery becomes tenuous, indeed. That's sort of been my point, but it's not meant to detract from legitimate -- or, hell, even illegitimate -- inquiry. Though you might not believe that at this point.

Nietzsche's point about staring into abysses becomes apropos. Or Colonel Kurtz.

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Post by megman » 01-18-2011 04:21 PM

Whether they actually gave the blankets to the Indians is a point of contention, BUT, the plan and consideration to do so is documented fact. This goes way back to the Middle Ages when they chucked dead infected bodies over castle walls. Its no stretch of the imagination to believe that they would consider using this against the savages as they were commonly referred to. :rolleyes:

Why, you would even bring this up as a Canadian/American thing is beyond me. It has absolutely nothing to do with it.

But we are waaaay off topic now........
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Post by lazarus long » 01-18-2011 04:23 PM

kbot wrote: The ability of the government to test weapons (or anything else for that matter) on an unwitting public is nothing new, and dates to at least the 1940s with the syphilis testing on blacks, the nuclear weapons testing in the 50s and early 60s, the LSD experiments and the spraying of Minneapolis and other cities in the 60s. I thik that there was another series of tests conducted at the old Bridgewater State Hospital in Bridgewater Mass back in the 30s on patients with psychological issues - your basic "captive" audience that no one was going to believe anyway........

believe me kbot, i know. i was only bringing that up to compare art's attitude before and after 9-11.
as for the small-pox infected blankets, that's another horrible chapter in america's biography. here's a small excerpt from a letter sent in 1763 (during pontiacs' rebellion) from one colonel bouquet to one lord amherst, to illustrate the care they felt for the fellow man:
"P.S. I will try to inocculate the Indians by means of Blankets that may fall in their hands, taking care however not to get the disease myself. As it is pity to oppose good men against them, I wish we could make use of the Spaniard's Method, and hunt them with English Dogs. Supported by Rangers, and some Light Horse, who would I think effectively extirpate or remove that Vermine. "
my favorite example (odd choice of words, i know) would have to be lyme disease.

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Post by lazarus long » 01-18-2011 04:25 PM

and kbot, art was discussing the law that made all of the tests legal btw. it was only put into place in the 90's, but i suppose it was retroactive.

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Post by HB3 » 01-18-2011 04:58 PM

megman wrote: Whether they actually gave the blankets to the Indians is a point of contention, BUT, the plan and consideration to do so is documented fact. This goes way back to the Middle Ages when they chucked dead infected bodies over castle walls. Its no stretch of the imagination to believe that they would consider using this against the savages as they were commonly referred to. :rolleyes:

Why, you would even bring this up as a Canadian/American thing is beyond me. It has absolutely nothing to do with it.

But we are waaaay off topic now........


It was just a joke, man. Anyway...I believe the argument is that "germ theory" as a cause of disease was finally discovered by Pasteur sometime in the 1830s. One of the reasons the Black Plague was such a crisis is no one had any idea what was causing it. "It's no stretch of the imagination that they would consider using this against the savages as they were commonly referred to." Yeah, again, exactly my point. Seems the one-sided demonization goes back a long way. History has been re-written totally according to this narrative. Bloodthirsty colonizers just looking for an excuse to rampage.

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Post by HB3 » 01-18-2011 05:09 PM

Oddly enough, it looks like the "US troops distributing smallpox infected blankets" story originates from Ward Churchill, the former professor and pseudo-Native American at the University of Colorado at Boulder who was dismissed recently for plagiarism:

http://tim.2wgroup.com/blog/archives/000889.html

I don't know if the above is believable, but I also don't consider the story as transmitted as immediately credible either, but rather one bearing all the signs of a contemporary mythology with a specific ideological agenda.

Note this story is independent of the story featuring Amherst, commander of British forces during the French and Indian War, which does seem to have some real documentation, if, as you said, no proof that the plans were actually carried out.

Regarding the medieval armies catapulting the dead into their enemies' castles...here's a question: if they understood the danger of exposure to plague-infected bodies, who was loading and launching the catapults?
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