More "extremists"...........

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More "extremists"...........

Post by kbot » 07-28-2013 05:58 PM

I read this yesterday in my local diocesan newspaper that my wife and I subscribe to and thought, "Nah....... that can't be right". So, I just had to look for myself and, yes, if you are a member of virtually ANY religious group, you are, by definition, an extremist.

Now, there's nothing new here - this was first leaked by Alex Jones and others a few years ago when the Missouri stet police's infamous MIAC Report was leaked.

What's "new" is that the military - yup, the very same military that virtually all vets and active duty personnel take as a given that it is made-up primarily of religious (of some kind) people.

Well..... not so fast. The "new" teachings, that were recently leaked from an Army Reserve training packet shows that the new training expands the list of extremists, and equates many mainstream religious groups with recognized hate groups.

So, various religious denominations (such as Evangelicals, Roman Catholics, etc) are now lumped into the same groups as the KKK, Hamas, Sunni Muslims and al Qaeda......

Last time I checked, no Evangelical Christian or Catholic bombed any American city or flew planes into skyscrapers. So, since essentially every Christian denomination can be called "evangelical" since evangelization is a common trait among all Christian denominations, our government has issued yet ANOTHER program that attacks religious freedoms in this country. And our government has, once again, proven that they are willing to use the police and military to be trained to.......... (what, "apply justice"?)

Still think your rights aren't being eroded?

US Army Reserve training: Catholicism, like Ku Klux Klan and Al-Qaeda, an example of ‘religious extremism’

A slide presentation used in training US Army Reserves in Pennsylvania has included Catholicism and evangelical Christianity on a list of 18 religious extremist organizations. Also included on the list of religious extremists are Al-Qaeda, the Ku Klux Klan, Hamas, Sunni Muslims, and “Islamophobia.”

“Every religion has some followers that believe that their beliefs, customs, and traditions are the only ‘right way’ and that all others are practicing their faith ‘the wrong way,’ seeing and believing that their faith/religion [is] superior to all others,” the slide explained.

“Extremist organizations’ goals are inconsistent with the Army’s goals, beliefs, and values with regard to equal opportunity,” another slide stated. Soldiers are prohibited from “participating in” an extremist organization’s “public demonstration or rally,” from “taking a visible leadership role” in the organization, or “distributing literature” on behalf of the organization, whether “on or off a military installation.”

The slide presentation prompted a protest from the Archdiocese for the Military Services.

“The Archdiocese is astounded that Catholics were listed alongside groups that are, by their very mission and nature, violent and extremist,” according to an archdiocesan statement. “According to an investigation and reply from the Army Chief of Chaplains office, the training in question appears to have been an isolated incident not condoned by the Department of the Army.”

“The Archdiocese and the Chaplain Alliance explained that the Army can and should take steps to prevent such incidents in the future,” the statement continued. “The Archdiocese calls upon the Department of Defense to review these materials and to ensure that taxpayer funds are never again used to present blatantly anti-religious material to the men and women in uniform.”

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Post by kbot » 07-28-2013 06:10 PM

Kinda along the same line (in terms of local police being trained and used to squash any dissent). This article is in regards to a local protest against a local coal-burning power plant. The power plants has been proven to pollute the air from southeastern Massachusetts well up into Canada and over towards Greenland. It has been connected to increased respiratory ailments and ozone levels.

In the attached article, take a look at how the local police are dressed. This picture was taken in anticipation of the rally. The town has a few thousands residents.......



http://www.heraldnews.com/news/x2734410 ... e-showdown

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Post by Cherry Kelly » 07-29-2013 10:56 AM

and it will get worse... sad to say.

not so much the religious but the political - and trained troops - doing the 'work' of the dictatorships...of the new "legal" systems -- you know the ones that violate the constitution. (bill of rights)

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Post by kbot » 07-29-2013 11:21 AM

Of course it'll get worse. We have the for-profit prison industry that needs to be fed after all..... Marijuana is being decriminalized, so something else will have to fill the void. Most people in this country list some sort of religion somewhere - church lists, census, hospital admission/ registration, etc, so the information is there, making one a suspect without having actually DONE anything.

It's the new "normal".......

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Post by Fan » 07-29-2013 02:23 PM

Funny how Satanism is not mentioned, since this is an officially recognized religion in both the US and UK armed forces (and in fact a very powerful and large organization)...

ie: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3948329.stm
Temple of Set: http://alleeshadowtradition.com/pdf/arm ... ndbook.pdf

The US security forces are trained to target Christians, patriots, food-freedom advocates, freemen, and any others who are deemed to be domestic threats.
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Post by kbot » 07-30-2013 06:34 AM

And neither is Wicca.

But, I did find it interesting that "Islamophobia", whch can most probably be (rightly or wrongly classed as a psychosis/ diagnosis, rather than a religion), was included on this list.

This sounds to me that the inclusion of this particular slide is more an isue of pushing a political agenda than providing factual information on "extremists". If we are take this perspective seriously then, why not be more inclusive in the search parameters and look at those people who are extremists and look at them by, for example, occupation?

Doing so, what would we find? A number of known terrorists were physicians and computer experts. Are we then to surmise that ALL physicians and computer experts are therefore terrorists? A number of anti-abortionists are married and female. Are we then to assume therefore that ALL women and also married couples are therefore terrorists?

Statistics are a dangerous thing, and with the push in this country to emulate Soviet-style justice and philosophy, coupled with the rise in for-profit prisons, I'd be worried......

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Post by Fan » 07-30-2013 09:05 AM

Do they even know what Islamophobia means? How is that a religion? I mean neither is the KKK, but they are at least an organized group with discernible goals.
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Post by Cherry Kelly » 07-30-2013 09:27 AM

Fan - just noticed your quote from Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle -- so on a side note here - met him back in college days at a speech he gave. Then after that - our advanced creative writing group met with him. Sometime later will tell you more about him. ahem. Yes I have a signed copy of one of his books.
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OK back to topic. I am non-denominationalist, raised a Lutheran - in a church where our pastor had served WWII - so we learned a lot about many religious groups through him. Then far too many Lutheran churches went - 'strange' -

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Post by Fan » 07-30-2013 09:32 AM

Cherry Kelly wrote: Fan - just noticed your quote from Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle -- so on a side note here - met him back in college days at a speech he gave. Then after that - our advanced creative writing group met with him. Sometime later will tell you more about him. ahem. Yes I have a signed copy of one of his books.
---

OK back to topic. I am non-denominationalist, raised a Lutheran - in a church where our pastor had served WWII - so we learned a lot about many religious groups through him. Then far too many Lutheran churches went - 'strange' -

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OT : Cherry I would love to hear! Make a thread about him some time, he is one of my all-time faves.
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Post by kbot » 07-30-2013 10:52 AM

Cherry Kelly wrote: OK back to topic. I am non-denominationalist, raised a Lutheran - in a church where our pastor had served WWII - so we learned a lot about many religious groups through him. Then far too many Lutheran churches went - 'strange' -

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I think that this can be said generally about any organized religion. I found this to be the case with Roman Catholicism post Vatican II........

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Post by voguy » 08-02-2013 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Cherry Kelly
OK back to topic. I am non-denominationalist, raised a Lutheran - in a church where our pastor had served WWII - so we learned a lot about many religious groups through him. Then far too many Lutheran churches went - 'strange' -


I've always maintained that a Lutheran is just a poor Catholic. While they have the wine and wafer, our church is so poor we get watered down Cool-Aid and half an Oreo.

I know I'm a Lutheran because while watching Star Wars and hearing "May the Force Be With You", I automatically answered, "and also with you."

Seriously, there are more divisions within the Lutheran church than most. Sadly, they all believe theirs is the only real truth.

And in the interest of full disclosure, while I am "religious", I don't practice a "religion". I find that most religions are like football teams. You're either for the team or against their playing.
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Post by Cherry Kelly » 08-03-2013 10:16 AM

voguy -- our church was "Swedish Lutheran" when I was there - but have not been there in many years. Last time I was there was for the funeral of my father and it was no longer a Lutheran that I recognized. It honestly seemed more -- hmm well closer to Catholic -- ? very odd...

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Post by voguy » 08-03-2013 11:48 AM

@Cherry... The Lutheran church has made a lot of turns since the day I was a child. There seems now to be the old line, which is very close to the Catholic church teachings, but there are also (what I call) the new age Lutherans which are more laid-back. In one of these churches I saw the pastor deliver the sermon in a nice, but non-traditional gold shirt. :)

But in fairness, the church evolves with the people who congregate within the walls. So it's not hard to imagine that in your church things changed.
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Post by kbot » 08-03-2013 12:10 PM

Cherry Kelly wrote: voguy -- our church was "Swedish Lutheran" when I was there - but have not been there in many years. Last time I was there was for the funeral of my father and it was no longer a Lutheran that I recognized. It honestly seemed more -- hmm well closer to Catholic -- ? very odd...

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This isn't odd at all, when you stop to consider that catholicism (in in many forms), was the main Christian religion for over 1500 years and the various protestant denominations "borrowed" what was already there in the Catholic Mass.

I couple of years ago, I bought an old book called The Mass, which is a classic in Catholic theological literature, written by Adrian Fortescue in 1912. The book describes how the liturgical rites of Christianity started and developed over time - starting with the Liturgy of the Apostolic Fathers, through the very early centuries - the various parent rites, Antiochian, Alexendrian, Gallican, and then how these rites which were developed locally from a single source, added various prayers and forms over the centuries, culminating in the Roman Rite.

The Roman Rite transformed the language of christian liturgy into the vernacular, which, at the time in the Western Europe was Latin as the main common language in education, government and trade, as opposed to Greek in the Eastern Church, or Syriac in the Middle Eastern rites.

One of the main reasons why the Protestants sought reforms (aside form the abuses of power, riches and vices in the Middle Age Roman Catholic Church) was the issue of the language to be used. By the time of Luther, Calvin and others, Latin had fallen out of favor as the local vernacular and with the invention of the printing press, the newly translated editions of "protestant bibles" such as the Geneva and King James Bibles, made the spread of Protestantism quicker. Even so, Latin remained the preferred form of the Roman liturgy until the late 1960s and many Roman Catholics still prefer that Rite over the Novo Ordo of Vatican II, which traditional Catholics view as a watered-down version of the old Tridentine Rite. Indeed the Novo Ordo was developed with a majority Protestant input and "guidance", which is one reason why so many traditional Catholics view Pope John XXIII (the second Pope John XXIII of the late 1950s and 1960s - not the first John XXIII of the Middle Ages.....) with a certain amount of hostility. The Novo Ordo is in many ways, a copy of the modern (1950s/ 1960s) Protestant services. So, this is probably one reason why you feel that your local Lutheran services "are like" the Roman Catholic services. Because they are very similar - the Roman Rite was changed in the 1960s to conform t the Protestant services under the guise of "modernism" which the popes from the mid-late 1800s and early 1900s fought against.

If you have the opportunity, go to a traditional Catholic Tridentine Mass - a ruling from Vatican II required that each Roman Catholic bishop is to provide at least one parish within the diocese for the observance of the old Roman Rite. A warning - the old Tridentine Rite is longer than the new post Vatican II Novo Ordo Mass, and also there are no modern trappings. A knowledge of Latin is helpful, although many missals do run parallel texts to assist in following along......

A note, even the old Tridentine Mass isn't exactly what the old Roman Rite used to be, but, it's probably as close as you will get....

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Post by voguy » 08-03-2013 04:16 PM

I think a lot of that comes from people discovering faults or having disagreements with the theology of the church. For example, I got into a rather heated discussion with a deacon of a church over Jesus having a sense of humor. His position was that Jesus was always serious and would never joke around. While I don't see Jesus as a standup comic, I also don't see him as a "Judge Judy" type. I think he would be receptive or tell humor given the confines of religion's purpose. However, this deacon was the same fellow who called everyone a sinner, and said I would go to the bowels of hell for not being "reborn". He must have received his deacon credentials from the Westboro Baptist Church. :)

But as I see churches and religions, I see them as groups of people who are more akin to being sports fans that practicing a faith to God. In the last five churches I've been to it's been little cliques of people who don't want outsiders, especially those which may question their views or interpretations of bible passages. To me, its a sham to call them a church.

I see merit in most religions, even that of Islam, but I also see religion being used as a weapon more and more, and I see it being used to pit one group against another.

Somehow I don't think this was God's plan.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson

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