Kerry Calls for a White House with a Commitment to Stem Cell

CaptainBeyond · Post by **CaptainBeyond** » 10-12-2004 11:26 PM

Forum: a public meeting or assembly for OPEN (not necessarily harmonious)discussion.

Anything other than that is a closed club or organization with a limited discussion and limited points of view!

BenSlain · Post by **BenSlain** » 10-12-2004 11:55 PM

CindyLouWho wrote: ?

And leave Linnea alone, too. It has become abundantly clear that you thrive on forum discourse rather than harmony ...

Well...I have no problem with Linnea...I like linnea, but she's in charge here so I'm just asking for clarification. You're comment on discourse is out of line. So screw that:rolleyes:

Forget it ...really. This ain't gonna change. After my last post on this thread I had a few other discussions with other people here. I sat back and found that there are people who think different than myself who also at the same time were a lot alike. I never said I was right all the time. And there's a lot of things I don't know. But there are also people who understand what it means to be a person no matter what their opinions are. That means people can change, learn and respect others. So thats good enough for me.

Forget my earlier request for a ruling. I found the answer on a different thead. There are good people here.

Joolz · Post by **Joolz** » 10-13-2004 12:28 AM

This is one part of the Libertarian philosophy that I agree with:

"Even the freedom of speech is limited by considerations of property. If a person visiting your home behaves in a way undesired by you, you have every right to evict him; he can scream or agitate elsewhere if he wishes, but not in your home without your consent. Does a person have a right to shout obscenities in a cathedral? No, for the owners of the cathedral (presumably the Church) have not allowed others on their property for that purpose; one may go there to worship or to visit, but not just for any purpose one wishes. Their property right is prior to your or my wish to scream or expectorate or write graffiti on their building. Or, take the stock example, does a person have a right to shout "Fire!" falsely in a crowded theater? No, for the theater owner hs permitted others to enter and use his property only for a specific purpose, that of seeing a film or watching a stage show. If a person heckles or otherwise disturbs other members of the audience, he can be thrown out. (In fact, he can be removed for any reason the owner chooses, provided his admission money is returned.) And if he shouts "Fire!" when there is no fire, he may be endangering other lives by causing a panic or a stampede. The right to free speech doesn't give one the right to say anything anywhere; it is circumscribed by property rights." ~ John Hospers, "What Libertarianism Is"

I note this because I think our existence in a cyber-realm brings up new considerations. What we do here forges new "rules" as we go.

While I agree that in public places, we do have the right to free speech, I agree with Hospers that we do not have that same right when we are on someone else's private property.

We all post here by the good graces of the owners of this forum. They maintain it, and for the most part, they bear the cost of it--for US. For all practical purposes, even though it may appear to us to be a public place, this forum is their property.

If this were a place in terra-space where we all gathered together, then it would be apparent as a physical place, and as property--perhaps a fantastical pub on a ship sailing the stormy seas, eh?

And the forum administrators would be the captains and the bartenders. But we sail the cyber-seas, and although appearances may be deceiving, this remains a privately owned and maintained space.

That is how I look at this situation, for what it's worth. I grant to the owners, our captains and bartenders, the right to run this ship as they see fit. Our right to free speech is here a privilege.

All that is asked of us is that members show respect for one another and for the community here. Just common decency.

Edited to fix typos...

Joolz · Post by **Joolz** » 10-13-2004 12:40 AM

BenSlain wrote: There are good people here.

Yes, there are good people here, Ben.

I think we are better served by looking for the commonalities wherever we can find them, than by striving to seed discord. It is true that we may not always be harmonous-- sometimes we get angry, or we feel hurt, or we are sad--but other times, we may dance for joy, or sing an old song together, or just walk on the decks and look at the moon. Above all, we can agree to be friends. As you pointed out, it takes effort to get to know someone for that to happen, tho.

As I see it, we are in for a rocky ride over the next few weeks, regardless of where we choose to hang our hats. So, hang on for the ride, folks!

But remember that, underneath all the blustery winds that shake us and rock our ship, there are real people aboard.

CaptainBeyond · Post by **CaptainBeyond** » 10-13-2004 12:59 AM

Hey folks,I respect everyone's opinion here and even more,the right to speak it.I often do counter Rom's remarks,but often it is merely to stimulate an opposing view so that one opinion does not go unchecked.

I do like it here and hope to stay,and I do not use foul language and dole out personal attacks.I also do not defend Bush,but the overwhelming voice here is against him.How do we expect to understand the opinions and beliefs of others if we don't even hear their views and different opinions.You can never hope to engage in civilized debate if all you do is call your opponent names and demonize them without ever engaging them and trying to understand the mentality that makes them tick.

How will we ever find peace with the Muslim world if all we do is call them rag heads and camel jockeys?We have to at least listen to them if we ever hope to understand them.It does not mean that we agree with them,but a dialog will help us to understand our differences.

I hope that the same discretion can be applied here as well.I know this time of political turmoil is unsettling for many people,but we should never become so self confident in our own beliefs that we fail to listen to the other side.We can often learn more from our own mistakes than we do from our success.

Iris · Post by **Iris** » 10-13-2004 01:15 AM

Here are some statements made in the last couple of days by Captain Beyond:

"Let me see if I understand,Drudge in your own words is "Sludge",but now,he is useful to spread your political onesided bs?"
showthread.php?s=&postid=210239#post210239

"No stalking or trolling,just countering your persistant horsesh--."
showthread.php?s=&postid=210239#post210239

"You are the one who should be under scrutiny,as all you do is use this forum to paste political bs.It wouldn't be so bad if you weren't such a rude crude ahole."
showthread.php?s=&postid=210239#post210239

"Well Kurt,just read some of the political threads and you will find an overwhelming hatred from the left.Some post nothing else but hateful political postings.Some of the most vile were removed and were not instigated by conservatives.
Some political hacks do bombard these forums with leftwing hate,and can't utter a sentance without displaying their hatred very overtly in pasting after pasting.Don't even look for them to show up in anything other than slanderous pastings from the left in the political threads.Merely a hack attack."
showthread.php?s=&postid=209778#post209778

"The Dem's started this whole dialogue about being mean spirited and political correctness,"
showthread.php?s=&postid=209562#post209562

Now, maybe I'm just old, but I don't read the above as a "difference of opinion." I don't read it as "I just want to discuss the issues" as he claims every time someone calls him on something he said. I don't read it as having a decent political discussion or as showing respect for others, and it's certainly not an attempt to be a part of this community. I read it as an attempt to be rude, insulting, and inflammatory.

P.S. Joolz, thanks for that post about the Libertarian viewpoint. You're right.

BenSlain · Post by **BenSlain** » 10-13-2004 01:22 AM

Iris. If you want to paste everyone's post out of content I''m sure I could cut your's up and make you look any way I wanted you to look.

What's your point?

CaptainBeyond · Post by **CaptainBeyond** » 10-13-2004 01:36 AM

Fine Iris,now go and spend the same amount of time an give the same amount of research to Rombaldi's responses not only to me,but to MANY other as well.You and everyone else will see that he is as guilty if not more in dolling out insults,slanderous remarks,even threats of violence that were removed from these threads!!!!!!!Rom has always demeaned Drudge as "Sludge unless the news suits his views.

I you are going to be the inspector,then by all means do it,but do it fairly,cause if I have to do it,I will bring many more to the table than you presented here.Of course,they could be omitted before I have the time,but many pirate here know what he has said.

I notice you didn't paste the remark about me finding a bridge and jumping off or crawling under it!How bout,"Boyo..keep it up...you'll find out".

It's quite alright,I know where you stand and that is your right,just don't lecture me when the most abrasive poster here gets away with out so much as a slap on the wriste.

Joolz · Post by **Joolz** » 10-13-2004 01:52 AM

CB... it is apparent to many here that you are stalking. Rom does NOT stalk you. You stalk him. You seek him out and harass him. As Mudwoman said: "Please stop." Or take Tiff's advice and put him on IGNORE. It's getting to be really tiring.

We really don't NEED for you to give us these "opposing views." We hear them on the TV and on the radio every time we turn them on. We read them every time we open the newspaper.

Enough.

(Edited to add: An opposing view that is sincere, that is a well-meaning attempt to state a position and create discussion--that is NOT what I'm talking about above. That is welcomed. What I spoke of is the posting of so-called opposing views just for the sake of disruption.)

BenSlain · Post by **BenSlain** » 10-13-2004 01:39 PM

Joolz wrote:
We really don't NEED for you to give us these "opposing views."

Nuff said.

Iris · Post by **Iris** » 10-13-2004 02:39 PM

Ben, you're not going to find me using the crude, insulting terms I quoted here, nor is my general tone even close to that -- and everyone knows it. I did not cut and paste out of context; I gave the url for each quote I pasted so the reader could clearly follow the context for themselves.

Ben, Joolz also said, "An opposing view that is sincere, that is a well-meaning attempt to state a position and create discussion ...is welcomed."

CB, I didn't lecture; I quoted. When my young children would get into fights, they'd always try to throw the blame on the other person without accepting any responsibility. Now that they're grown, they accept and admit responsibility for their own actions without pointing fingers.

seattlegal · Post by **seattlegal** » 10-13-2004 03:09 PM

Actually, the most successful work in treating spinal cord injuries involves using olfactory ensheathing glial cells, which continue growing throughout a person's lifetime. They can be taken from the patient, (or from 2nd trimester aborted fetuses, like Dr. Huang is doing in China.) However, all of the current political hub-bub is surrounding federal funding of embryonic stem cell research. We voters really need to educate ourselves regarding stem cell research, or we will likely become vulnerable to being swayed by political dogma instead of the true facts.

Mercury · Post by **Mercury** » 10-13-2004 03:32 PM

"We voters really need to educate ourselves regarding stem cell research, or we will likely become vulnerable to being swayed by political dogma instead of the true facts."

Or, even worse, we could also be vulnerable to being swayed by smokescreen arguments -the real purpose of which are to obfuscate the issue at hand while holding science hostage to an agenda based on the rules of fairytale religious dogma.

mudwoman · Post by **mudwoman** » 10-13-2004 04:02 PM

It is true that there is a great deal of excitement prompted by work with a variety of myelin-forming cell types (such as Schwann cells and olfactory ensheathing cells) showing remyelination (regrowth of myelin sheaths) in test mice. Another potential source is progenitor cells derived from the subventricular zone of the brain and from bone marrow. They can also form myelin when transplanted into demyelinated lesions in rodents.

These findings are an insufficient reason, IMO to limit research. We can significantly increase our chances of success by perusing many paths simultaneously, instead of allowing science to be held hostage by theology.

seattlegal · Post by **seattlegal** » 10-14-2004 12:55 AM

We can significantly increase our chances of success by perusing many paths simultaneously, instead of allowing science to be held hostage by theology.

We are in agreement that all of the findings and possibilities need to be on the table to be intelligently examined from all of the relevant angles, without undue emphasis or omission from special inteterests.