Visit to Syria by Pelosi Is Under Fire

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Joolz
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Post by Joolz » 04-06-2007 05:01 PM

This passage may be of interest to some of the women who are posting on this thread. I don’t mean to further any sort of conflagration concerning women, veiling, and Islam, but merely to offer, for those women here who may be interested, a fresh point of view from a non-Western perspective.

Excerpt from Women and Gender in Islam: Historical Roots of a Modern Debate by Leila Ahmed:
Essentially, the adoption of Islamic dress and the affiliation with Islamism express an affirmation of ethical and social customs—particularly with regard to mixing with the opposite sex—that those adopting the dress and affiliation are comfortable with and accustomed to. For women, Islamic dress also appears to bring a variety of distinct practical advantages. On the simplest, most material level, it is economical. Women adopting Islamic dress are saved the expense of acquiring fashionable clothes and having more than two or three outfits. The dress also protects them from male harassment. In responding to a questionnaire, women stated that wearing Islamic dress resulted in a marked difference in the way they were treated in public places.

These practical advantages partially explain why university and professional women in particular adopt Islamic dress—women who daily venture onto coeducational campuses and into sexually integrated work places on crowded public transport in cities in which, given the strong rural origin of much of the population, sexually integrated social space is still an alien, uncomfortable social reality for both women and men. Thus, the ritual invocation through dress of the notion of segregation places the integrated reality in a framework that defuses it of stress and impropriety. At the same time, it declares women’s presence in public space to be in no way a challenge to or a violation of the Islamic sociocultural ethic.

The dress has a number of decidedly practical advantages. For example, the fact that wearing it signals the wearer’s adherence to an Islamic moral and sexual code has the paradoxical effect, as some women have attested, of allowing them to strike up friendships with men and be seen with them without the fear that they will be dubbed immoral or their reputations damaged. Women declare that they avoided being seen in conversation with men before adopting Islamic dress, but now they feel free to study with men in their classes or even walk with them to the station without any cost to their reputation. In an age in which arranged marriages are disappearing and women need to find their own marriage partners, clothes that enable women to socialize with men to some degree and at the same time indicate their adherence to a strict moral code (which makes them attractive as wives) are advantageous in very tangible ways.

In adopting Islamic dress, then, women are in effect “carving out legitimate public space for themselves,” as one analyst of the phenomenon put it, and public space is by this means being redefined to accommodate women. The adoption of the dress does not declare women’s place to be in the home but, on the contrary, legitimizes their presence outside it. Consequently, it appears that the prevalence of the Islamic mode among women coming of age in the 1970s and 1980s—women of the second phase [of feminism]—cannot be seen as a retreat from the affirmations of female autonomy and subjectivity made by the generation of women who immediately preceded them. Although the voice of overt feminism and perhaps even feminist consciousness may be absent, the entry of women into the university, the professions, and public space in unprecedentedly large numbers and the availability of education and professional occupations to women from a far broader segment of the population than before cannot be construed as regressive, however apparently conservative the uniform they wear to accomplish these moves comfortably. … Far from indicating that the wearers remain fixed in a world of tradition and the past, then, Islamic dress is the uniform of arrival, signaling entrance into, and determination to move forward in, modernity.

-Leila Ahmed, Women and Gender in Islam, pp 223-225
We must be aware of, and guard against, in my opinion, the dangers inherent in ethnocentric evaluations, and especially of those judgments which arise from deep within our own particular political leanings. If we are to truly be advocates for effective change in the world, we must understand the implications of that which we advocate through the eyes of those whom we think we wish to change.

Notes on Leila Ahmed:
Leila Ahmed was born in Cairo, Egypt in 1940. She earned her PhD, MA, and BA at University of Cambridge. She currently holds a professorship at the Harvard Divinity School. In 1999, she became the first professor of women’s studies in religion at the Harvard Divinity School, and was appointed to fill the Victor S. Thomas chair in 2003. Prior to her appointment at the Harvard Divinity School, she was professor of women’s studies and Near Eastern studies at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, and while there, was director of the Near Eastern studies program from 1991 to 1993, and director of the women’s studies program from 1992 to 1995. She was also, in 1992, a distinguished visiting professor at the American University in Cairo, Egypt. In 1997, she was elected to a lifetime membership at Clare Hall in the University of Cambridge in England, and received a distinguished faculty fellowship award there for the 1996–97 academic year.
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Raggedyann
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Post by Raggedyann » 04-06-2007 06:25 PM

This is indeed a new insight and perspective Joolz.

I know little of Middle Eastern culture but I do know enough to know that it is far more complex than what we see merely on the face of it.

In the course of history, it really hasn't been that long since the female half of the population in the West has had the freedoms that we now enjoy. We do have the freedom to dress the way we like, within the bounds of human decency but in other areas, there is also room for improvement. :)

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Post by Joolz » 04-06-2007 07:05 PM

Raggedyann wrote: This is indeed a new insight and perspective Joolz.

I know little of Middle Eastern culture but I do know enough to know that it is far more complex than what we see merely on the face of it.

In the course of history, it really hasn't been that long since the female half of the population in the West has had the freedoms that we now enjoy. We do have the freedom to dress the way we like, within the bounds of human decency but in other areas, there is also room for improvement. :)
I'm glad you ejoyed it. :)

As for your last paragraph, women having the freedom to dress as we like here in America--yet STILL within bounds--is a very recent development. From my own personal experience, for example, it was not until my junior year of high school that I was allowed to do such a simple thing as wear pants to school. Before that, we were allowed only to wear skirts and dresses, the length of which was strictly regulated. We also had an assistant principal who (this was the early 70s) was fond of running his hand down the backs of female students to determine whether or not they were wearing a bra (note here that it was not obvious to the eye, else he would not have needed to do this--then again, maybe he was just a pervert). If he determined she was not, she was sent home to change clothes, and sometimes, suspended for three days.

In another book about women and Islam (Politics of Piety), anthropologist and author Saba Mahmood reports women in Muslim countries often say that they feel uncomfortable in public, somehow exposed, without wearing at least a hijab. I can understand and relate to this.

Are there not articles of clothing without which we women in the West are also made to feel "uncomfortable, somehow exposed" in public? Western culture has had its own articles of clothing, from bustles to corsets to brassieres, that in various times and places women have been (and in the case of the brassiere, are still) forced to wear lest they experience a similar sense of discomfort. I contend that in most parts of America today, a respectable woman (of any faith, or none at all) would feel uncomfortable in public were she not wearing a brassiere.

These Western articles of women's clothing did not originate within the context of religion, but then, the practice of veiling also did not originate within a religious context, but was a style of clothing already in use prior to the advent of Islam. (Veiling actually originated with the Zoroastrians, who used it as a way to tell, at a glance, which were "good," marriageable women rather than prostitutes.) In both cases, these clothing styles have arisen within the context of our respective cultures, outside of religion. If these clothing styles have sometimes come to be seen as religious injunctions for proper women, then these customs have been appropriated by religion from culture--not the other way around.
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Raggedyann
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Post by Raggedyann » 04-06-2007 08:40 PM

Joolz wrote: I'm glad you ejoyed it. :)

As for your last paragraph, women having the freedom to dress as we like here in America--yet STILL within bounds--is a very recent development. From my own personal experience, for example, it was not until my junior year of high school that I was allowed to do such a simple thing as wear pants to school. Before that, we were allowed only to wear skirts and dresses, the length of which was strictly regulated. We also had an assistant principal who (this was the early 70s) was fond of running his hand down the backs of female students to determine whether or not they were wearing a bra (note here that it was not obvious to the eye, else he would not have needed to do this--then again, maybe he was just a pervert). If he determined she was not, she was sent home to change clothes, and sometimes, suspended for three days.

In another book about women and Islam (Politics of Piety), anthropologist and author Saba Mahmood reports women in Muslim countries often say that they feel uncomfortable in public, somehow exposed, without wearing at least a hijab. I can understand and relate to this.

Are there not articles of clothing without which we women in the West are also made to feel "uncomfortable, somehow exposed" in public? Western culture has had its own articles of clothing, from bustles to corsets to brassieres, that in various times and places women have been (and in the case of the brassiere, are still) forced to wear lest they experience a similar sense of discomfort. I contend that in most parts of America today, a respectable woman (of any faith, or none at all) would feel uncomfortable in public were she not wearing a brassiere.

These Western articles of women's clothing did not originate within the context of religion, but then, the practice of veiling also did not originate within a religious context, but was a style of clothing already in use prior to the advent of Islam. (Veiling actually originated with the Zoroastrians, who used it as a way to tell, at a glance, which were "good," marriageable women rather than prostitutes.) In both cases, these clothing styles have arisen within the context of our respective cultures, outside of religion. If these clothing styles have sometimes come to be seen as religious injunctions for proper women, then these customs have been appropriated by religion from culture--not the other way around.

When I went to school we had the same rules. The only time we were allowed to wear slacks in school is when the temp hit 20F below zero so we didn't freeze our legs off walking there and then we had to take a skirt with us to change into.

If my memory serves me right, it was a woman who invented the brassier. What was she thinking? When I see film of African woman clad only in loin cloths, I am green with envy! :D

We need to think long and hard before we attempt to foist our own traditions upon other cultures. Notice how angry we all become when the "Merry Christmas" issue rears it's head every year? We deeply resent this and rightly so, but it is a small example of how we feel when other's interfere with our traditions.

Celebrate your faith and traditions however you want and wherever you want. Respect and tolerance are the keys words.
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Post by Raggedyann » 04-06-2007 09:07 PM

Had to look it up:

Mary Phelps Jacob, Inventor of the Modern Brassiere. :mad:

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Post by Joolz » 04-06-2007 09:23 PM

Raggedyann wrote: When I went to school we had the same rules. The only time we were allowed to wear slacks in school is when the temp hit 20F below zero so we didn't freeze our legs off walking there and then we had to take a skirt with us to change into.
I lived in Michigan then, and yes, it was damn COLD. Until we got them to change the stupid dress code, we were literally freezing our arses off.
If my memory serves me right, it was a woman who invented the brassier. What was she thinking? When I see film of African woman clad only in loin cloths, I am green with envy! :D

LOL Yes! What WAS she thinking? As I recall, she was trying to come up with something more comfortable then the bindings women were wearing at the time, but jeez...
We need to think long and hard before we attempt to foist our own traditions upon other cultures. ...

Agreed.
Celebrate your faith and traditions however you want and wherever you want. Respect and tolerance are the keys words.

RESPECT and TOLERANCE... yes, well said.

Thanks for the opportunity to have an interesting discussion. :)
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Post by SETIsLady » 04-06-2007 09:27 PM

Raggedyann wrote: Notice how angry we all become when the "Merry Christmas" issue rears it's head every year? We deeply resent this and rightly so, but it is a small example of how we feel when other's interfere with our traditions.
Isn't that the truth.

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Post by tiffany » 04-06-2007 09:30 PM

Has anyone heard whether Pelosi is back yet or when she is going to return.

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Post by Raggedyann » 04-06-2007 11:37 PM

I don't know Tiffany but the last time I saw her on TV, she was wearing pants and her scarf was down around her neck. Maybe she reads here? :D

Thanks to you too Joolz. It's great to discuss, whether we all agree or we all don't agree.
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Post by Joolz » 04-07-2007 05:33 AM

I read tonight that she's on her way back to the States, and had stopped in Portugal for a brief time earlier today.
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Post by tiffany » 04-07-2007 09:43 AM

Thanks Joolz, I hope she accomplished what she set out to do, now we can see if this has made a difference.:)

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Post by tiffany » 04-07-2007 05:47 PM

Pelosi: Bush administration threw a tantrum.The New York Times reports, via Mahablog:

Ms. Pelosi, in a telephone interview from Lisbon on Friday, said she could not account for the Bush administration’s assault, which she at one point equated to a tantrum. (She said her children were teasing her about Mr. Cheney’s accusation of bad behavior.) Defending her trip, Ms. Pelosi said that members of Congress had a responsibility to play a role in national security issues and that they needed to be able to gather information on their own, and not be dependent on the White House.

“I am used to the administration; nothing surprises me,” she said. “Having said that, I hope we can have the opportunity to convey to the president what we saw

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/04/07/pel ... a-tantrum/

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Post by Joolz » 04-07-2007 08:47 PM

tiffany wrote: Defending her trip, Ms. Pelosi said that members of Congress had a responsibility to play a role in national security issues and that they needed to be able to gather information on their own, and not be dependent on the White House.

Damn good point. She knows as well as we do that they LIE.
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Post by Corvid » 04-07-2007 10:08 PM

I asked myself, "Who would voluntarily cover their heads all the damn time?".... but answer came there nun.

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Post by Shirleypal » 04-07-2007 10:13 PM

Corvid it is nice to see you up to your old tricks.:D :D :D

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