Liberal Party of Canada Adopts Basic Income Policy

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Riddick
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Good Business

Post by Riddick » 06-02-2016 11:35 PM

Semi OT, but tangentally related to the discussion, here's the story of The Day The Merchant Banker Learned Something New


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Re: Fish Story

Post by voguy » 06-03-2016 03:49 PM

Riddick wrote:Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach that man to fish, and eventually he may catch more than you. Comes the day you ask him for a fish, he may give you one, OR he may give you a dirty look instead.
As Spock would say, "humans are very illogical." I've seen some who you teach the principles of finance to, and as soon as they get a buck in their pocket they will blow it on something crazy. I've seen some go into the hoarder mode. And I've seen some who have paid it ahead in spades. I would have never gotten to where I am today had I not stopped, listened, learned, and then applied the knowledge to real life. I never needed their "help".
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Fish Story

Post by Raggedyann » 06-03-2016 04:38 PM

voguy wrote:
Riddick wrote:I never needed their "help".
I have.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

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Live Long And Prosper

Post by Riddick » 06-03-2016 04:39 PM

voguy wrote:
Riddick wrote:Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach that man to fish, and eventually he may catch more than you. Comes the day you ask him for a fish, he may give you one, OR he may give you a dirty look instead.

As Spock would say, "humans are very illogical." I've seen some who you teach the principles of finance to, and as soon as they get a buck in their pocket they will blow it on something crazy. I've seen some go into the hoarder mode. And I've seen some who have paid it ahead in spades. I would have never gotten to where I am today had I not stopped, listened, learned, and then applied the knowledge to real life. I never needed their "help".
Fascinating! It's great how exceptionally life's worked out for you, through sheer intelligence and logic...

You sure you're not a Vulcan?

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Re: Fish Story (note: fixed your quoting, RA)

Post by Riddick » 06-03-2016 04:51 PM

Raggedyann wrote:
voguy wrote:I never needed their "help".
I have.
Not a Vulcan, then?
Last edited by Riddick on 06-03-2016 05:05 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fish Story (note: fixed your quoting, RA)

Post by Raggedyann » 06-03-2016 04:59 PM

Riddick wrote:
Raggedyann wrote:
voguy wrote:I never needed their "help".
I have.
Not a Vulcan, then?
No Riddick, my ears are rounded and boring. :mrgreen:

Thanks for fixing my quoting screw up. :D
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

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Mr Spock, A (Gasp!) Democratic Socialist??

Post by Riddick » 06-04-2016 12:02 AM

So! The Truth Comes Out.



But then, Spock's only half Vulcan. Mebbe he's related to Bernie on his mom's side
---

And Now For Something Tangentially Germaine, Here's two more Monty Python sketches --

To Go Where No Yorkshireman Has Gone Before
Self-made men of means making merry reminisce on their humble beginnings


The Trouble With Lupins
A British highwayman takes his 'share the wealth' quest to its logical (?) extreme

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IMHO So Carlin's No Vulcan? Yeah, But For A Human He Sure Knows His Sh!t

Post by Riddick » 06-04-2016 12:35 AM


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Beyond Spockonomics?

Post by Riddick » 06-04-2016 03:49 AM

Princeton political economy professor Uwe Reinhardt suggests modern economics may as well be called Spockonomics because so much of it is devoted to modeling life on Star Trek’s legendary planet Vulcan. Yet our earth-bound economists are at a loss regarding how to avoid train wrecks.

Rather, blinded by the clever, stylized theories of human behavior they have concocted, it appears economists would not recognize an economic train wreck driven by human irrationality unless the train hit them.

Princeton psychology professor Daniel Kahneman — who earned the Nobel Prize in economics for his and late colleague Amos Tversky’s trenchant critique of the economists’ behavioral theories — had long warned the profession about the perils of its simplistic assumptions. Richard Thaler, pioneer in the still nascent profession of “behavioral economics,” calls the extraterrestrial creatures at the core of these stylized models “Econs,” as distinct from “Humans.”

Alas, economists find it difficult to embrace the behavior of Humans within their mathematical models. So instead they have prepared themselves and their students for the more elegant life among the Econs.

Certainly no one following misguided assumptions about human behavior would ever imagine the chief executives of the world’s financial sector would in unison drive their firms over a cliff like lemmings, arguably harming the global community more than any terrorist group could ever hope to do.

Even so much the economics profession today is as unprepared and helpless to deal with calamity as it has shown itself to be, optimistically looking ahead in the ST:TNG world scarcity - the central defining concept of economics - seems to have been eliminated. Is this really the future? Is it possible? Is it something we want?

One theory is as society gets richer and richer, capitalism and free markets will still exist, but will simply recede into the background. Others describe Star Trek not as a socialist paradise, but as a libertarian one.

Will technological advances actually end economics as we know it, and destroy scarcity, by changing the nature of human desire? Read More

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Adopts Basic Income Policy

Post by Doka » 06-04-2016 03:24 PM

So, some Economists are human and are attached to the "human condition" other Economists are not attached to any thing, and fly around like a pin pricked balloon, making a lot of noise, but no sense and are insane. Do we call those "Government Employees" ?
Karma Rules

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Adopts Basic Income Policy

Post by Riddick » 06-04-2016 03:50 PM

Doka wrote:So, some Economists are human and are attached to the "human condition" other Economists are not attached to any thing, and fly around like a pin pricked balloon, making a lot of noise, but no sense and are insane. Do we call those "Government Employees" ?
Well, insofar the US Census collects economic data, and I was a field agent back in 2000-2002, I'll say no small number of managers at the Milwaukee and Chicago offices certainly displayed behavior not unlike you describe. Reaching my nonsense tolerance limit, and not wanting to become insane myself, I got the hell out. Still, it's not like I haven't encountered just as many people like that in the private sector.

Maybe the true "human condition" IS insanity.

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Adopts Basic Income Policy

Post by Raggedyann » 06-05-2016 04:27 PM

Swiss Reject Plan To Give Themselves A Guaranteed Basic Income

ZURICH/BERN, June 5 (Reuters) - Swiss voters rejected by a wide margin on Sunday a proposal to introduce a guaranteed basic income for everyone living in the wealthy country after an uneasy debate about the future of work at a time of increasing automation.

Supporters had said introducing a monthly income of 2,500 Swiss francs ($2,563) per adult and 625 francs per child under 18 no matter how much they work would promote human dignity and public service.

Opponents, including the government, said it would cost too much and weaken the economy.

Provisional final results showed 76.9 percent of voters opposed the bold social experiment launched by Basel cafe owner Daniel Haeni and allies in a vote under the Swiss system of direct democracy.

Haeni acknowledged defeat but claimed a moral victory.

“As a businessman I am a realist and had reckoned with 15 percent support, now it looks like more than 20 percent or maybe even 25 percent. I find that fabulous and sensational,” he told SRF.

“When I see the media interest, from abroad as well, then I say we are setting a trend.”

Conservative Switzerland is the first country to hold a national referendum on an unconditional basic income, but others including Finland are examining similar plans as societies ponder a world where robots replace humans in the workforce.

Olivier, a 26-year-old carpenter who works on construction sites and runs a small business designing and building furniture, said he voted “yes.”

“For me it would be a great opportunity to put my focus on my passion and not go to work just for a living,” he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/swi ... 20fa0e38dc
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

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Re: Liberal Party of Canada Adopts Basic Income Policy

Post by Riddick » 07-05-2016 12:34 AM

What If Everybody Didn't Have to Work to Get Paid?
Advocates say that a guaranteed basic income can lead to more creative, fulfilling work. The question is how to fund it. FULL STORY

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Finland Is About To Experiment With A Radical New Form Of Welfare

Post by Riddick » 09-01-2016 12:12 AM

Thousands To Receive Basic Income In A Trial That Could Lead To The Greatest Societal Transformation Of Our Time

Finland is about to launch an experiment in which a randomly selected group of 2,000–3,000 citizens already on unemployment benefits will begin to receive a monthly basic income of 560 euros (approx. $600).

That basic income will replace their existing benefits. The amount is the same as the current guaranteed minimum level of Finnish social security support.

The pilot study, running for two years in 2017-2018, aims to assess whether basic income can help reduce poverty, social exclusion, and bureaucracy, while increasing the employment rate.

The world’s largest national basic income experiment represents a big leap towards experimental governance, a transformation that has been given strong emphasis in the current government program of the Finnish state.

Additionally, the Finnish trial sets the agenda for the future of universal basic income at large. Its results will be closely followed by governments worldwide. The basic income experiment may thus well lead to the greatest societal transformation of our time.

FULL STORY

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The UBI Bedtime Story Helps The Super-Wealthy Sleep Better

Post by Riddick » 07-15-2017 02:02 AM

It now has fans from the material left, the right, and, in the form of Canadian prime minister (and poster-boy for photogenic progressivism) Justin Trudeau, the absolute center. We’re liable, in the absence of any other proposals, to become fans ourselves. But most importantly, beyond the support of people and politicians, it has our era’s true leaders—the billionaires of Silicon Valley—on its side.

It's a policy gift they offer us as part of their vision of a sustainable economic future: To rid us of the problems of life on Earth, to help untether ourselves from those mortal chains and speed us through a tunnel unto paradise, Elon Musk and so many others in the C-suites of Silicon Valley propose a world with universal basic income.

UBI, says Facebook’s Zuckerberg and eBay’s Omidyar, is the patch for the economic problems of everyday people. But what Musk and his colleagues tend to leave out of their compassionate public speech is that UBI is also a patch for their problems. After all, this policy is not one confined to their own business practice, but something they wish to impose on states and nations—on us.

UBI is a hack that may well benefit its Silicon Valley advocates in the short-term, but it’ll compound income and social inequality for the rest of us for decades (especially if it’s applied in the gloriously “simple” spirit in which it is largely understood).

Here’s the shameful secret not uttered in our favorite futurists’ TED-style presentations. The reason they adore UBI isn’t to do with their commitment to lift a growing underclass out of poverty; that’s just a bedtime story that helps the super-wealthy sleep.

Instead, it’s more to permit spending on their goods by what remains of the American middle class. No one on a stagnant wage can currently buy the things that Musk—and the rest of Silicon Valley—wants to sell them. These billionaires champion a scheme whose prime result will be their profit.

UBI inserted into our current economic software is likely to raise prices on many everyday goods. According to the late, noted US economist Hyman Minsky, one of these may be a rise in the cost of living. Even though there is UBI in your pocket, it is in everybody’s pocket. Just as prices would be likely to rise with the introduction of a new basic wage, so they would with the introduction of UBI.

UBI absorbed into current conditions is therefore likely to provide no positive change for us. There is no way to guarantee that landlords or merchants will not raise prices to reflect the moderate gain in income. If you’re already well-to-do, a price increase in the residential rental market or at the supermarket is of no great consequence to you. If you’re one of the 51% of Americans earning less than $30,000 per annum, it’s likely to have a significant effect.

This may guarantee that profits to the investment class and merchants will increase while creating a greater strain on the classes it’s most meant to benefit. After all, the wealthier classes are also receiving UBI, which they don’t need to spend—they can transform that extra cash into capital, as Musk would. This may have the effect of increasing wealth inequality, not eradicating it. The extra money (remember benign idealist Musk, the man who was once the CEO of PayPal, says he doesn't care about money) may well become meaningless due to UBI-led inflation.

UBI evokes, as do many of the phrases relished by Musk, a sort of realist utopia. It is certain, for a time, to safeguard the interests of a powerful few. But in the long-term, it is likely to diminish the purchasing power of the many. A true social dividend would not be a small state stipend whose terms are set by the billionaires of Silicon Valley.

The innovations produced not just by Musk but by centuries of human labor have made history’s richest companies less likely to profit. The capitalism that Musk says he doesn’t care about is crushed by the weight of its own contradictions, so he want to prop it up with a government subsidy. But coming from the guy who believes in Martian colonization, UBI, an old idea, is hardly the innovative thinking for which he should want to be known.

FULL STORY

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