Are There Demons?

[Westward Ho]

I suppose if anyone responds, it may be from a doctrinnaire viewpoint rather than from a deeper sense of what is true. Nonetheless, I am interested in peoples' views.

I am reading a book by a previous guest on C2C (Sarchie - a NY police officer) who assists in exorcisms, sort of a civilian demon buster. He works with Catholic Bishop McKenna. He is staunching Catholic in the old school and probably thinks most of us C2C folks will burn in hell!

I don't know if I have entered one man's parochial fantasy world, a conscious con, or if what he relates is true. Demons who flee holy water (whatever THAT is? Why would a demon flee just because some parish priest blessed some water?). This guy also actually seems to believe that he has a splinter from the cross of Jesus, which he uses as his most sacred protection. When not out demon busting, he hangs it over his sacred marriage bed.

People still believe that such icons are real? What next, the sacred toilet paper of Pontious Pilate?

Now, I am being flippant about such Catholic silliness, but is the underlying truth that there is a SERVICE TO OTHERS path, the path of GOD versus a SERVICE TO SELF path, which includes the demonic forces who desperately need some career counseling!

Any takers on this topic outside just repeating dogma?

[Devastated]

Rabbits' feet, photos of family members, lucky coins and jewelry. All kinds of odd symbolic stuff. Why would you carry a photo of a family member in your wallet? How can a stupid "image" evoke the "presence" of the loved one? Don't you have any, Ho? Or do you just choose to attack the Catholic Voodoo?

[Westward Ho]

Rabbits' feet, photos of family members, lucky coins and jewelry. All kinds of odd symbolic stuff. Why would you carry a photo of a family member in your wallet? How can a stupid "image" evoke the "presence" of the loved one? Don't you have any, Ho? Or do you just choose to attack the Catholic Voodoo?

I have photos, but I do not claim the photo is the person. Nor do I claim that a toothpick is from the one and only true cross of Jesus Christ, nor that I have Jesus' actual blood in a jar or that I have St. Paul's pubic hair encased in glass!

I realize the symbolic value of icons, but when superstition insists that they are NOT symbols but instead the actual item themselves, e.g., one of King Arthur's toe nails or Sherlock Holmes' empty cocaine vials, then I draw the line. What next? Will someone claim they have the magic feather that allowed Jumbo the Elephant to fly?

Power comes from faith in God and from within yourself, not some trinket.

Interesting note: I went to a lecture in church by Margaret Starbird the other night. While I find some of her theories speculative at best, she made an interesting point. She said that we see the "miracle" of crying Virgin Mary statues in Catholic churches from time to time. Yet in the Bible, the mother of Jesus NEVER was described Biblically as having cried. Instead, the only Mary in the Bible that cried was Mary Magdalene, the woman a Catholic pope turned into a prostitute when in reality that was never true. So this particular Crying Virgin Mary miracle does not even match Biblical fact, although it probably sends many third world Catholics into wailing also.

By the way, the topic of this thread was to be demonic possession, not someone who gets all huffy because I made a couple remarks about specious Catholic icons.

[fabzilla]

IMHO, the power that these 'trinckets' may appear to the bearer to have is all just an extension of one's own power over an object and the ability to project an 'essence' of sorts to an item that is receiving your focus.


If you think and believe in something hard enough, will it change it's makeup?

Not in a physical sense but quite possibly in a metaphysical or spiritual sense.

Most people lack the focus to generate anything within themselves, but, if you supply them with an object to place that faith upon and invest their essence into, the realm of possibility is endless unto what this style of focusing may influence and create, which of course they could have done without the material focal point to begin with.


Kinda similar to doing a yoga exercise to a tape of an instructor showing you and giving you something to visualize rather than just attempting to do it on your own. A rather crude metaphoric phrasing, but Westward you are quite the intelligent individual and I think you will see were I am going with this, at least I hope you will.

We can make the change on our own, it is just that most lack the focus and strength to realize it and rather opt towards an icon or a token to vest this power into when it is not required at all.

Now dogmatically speaking in regards to religious tokens, the verdict is still out for me. Most are quite far fetched, but some are entirely to profound for me to categorize in this methodology. But of course, it could be applied effectively as such.

fab


OBTW, regardding demons, spirits, ghosts...

Yes, I feel they are very real and have a few stories of my own that warrant this belief from me.

Now, is it just the environment at that particular time and something created out of thought and focus stemming from my own Id? Possibly.

but my own experiences say it was not.

[Westward Ho]

Well, since icons are the topic, what I found interesting in the book by Sarchie on exorcisms is that he claims that when the splinter from the Cross was held up to a possessed person, they would shriek in horror. When Holy Water was sprinkled on them, they'd also freak out like the Wicked Witch in the Wizard of Oz.
If some other relic was put on them, e.g., St. Paul's belly botton fuzz, the demon would also go crazy in anguish.

What would make a supernatural being freak out at being in contact with such items? Is it the solumn belief of the devout who invest them with magical powers?

I am willing to believe they may have such an energy buildup within them, but I guess my peeve is when the Church knowingly calls the icons legitmate when I really doubt we have splinters from the true cross nor fuzz from St. Paul's belly botton.

I am not Catholic so I don't know if it is just well known that these are symbols? Sarchie failed to make that distinction in his book, but as a good Catholic boy, perhaps he assumes it is self evident?

In ancient Roman times, religion was full of statues representing the many gods. The belief was that when prayed to, the statue takes on the life of the god, sort of like a telephone booth in the MATRIX. So the god can see thru the eyes of the statue. That same concept seems prevalent in the Catholic Church which arose from those times, whereas the Protestant churches have no such personification of statuary or icons. If anything, they personify the minister and perhaps give him/her that projective power, e.g., Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson as some dowdy right wing deification of the divine?

[Westward Ho]

Just an afterthought....I suppose this is what LORD OF THE RINGS was all about. When I read the book as a good protestant girl, I thought "Why did Sauron do such a silly thing as to put HIS power into an object? Seems like a fatal flaw in his plan, since everyone knows that rings get lost easily" Of course, at least he didn't put his power into sunglasses, which disappear at an alarming rate in this country!

Same goes for the wizard's staff.

I think such tales from ancient times reflect a period when people did project literally and figuratively so much of themselves and their power (and shadow) onto objects, then worshiped the objects as having power EXTERNAL to themselves.

Sort of a dangerous practice, as Sauron found out. I suppose the deeper lesson for modern america is, where do you put your power? Do you externalize it as your fancy car, your fancy house, your bulging muscles (from the Fitness Center) or a pair of designer shoes? We all do it....for me, I just had my hair highlighted yesterday, so I feel like the personification of Venus as I stomp through the outlet mall seeking shoes for my kids.

[fabzilla]

All I can think is their are laws outside of the ones known to us, maybe spiritual maybe universal light and dark type, I don't know.

If we had all the answers to questions of this type, we ourselves would be "god" which may already be the reality of it all, it would be a much better little biosphere we inhabit.

fab

[Lord Moon]

Take a guess.....

PEOPLE.....trying to excuse the insanity that they perpetrate on others by putting responsibility on a fictitious thing.....

as Yoko Ono said when John Lennon was shot that only real war is between the sane and the insane....

God must really love crazy people because he makes so many of them...

[Iris]

Belief is a powerful thing, especially when it's shared by many. But if a large number of people believe the same thing, does that make it true, or just concensus reality? Maybe everything we know is only concensus reality and it's all an illusion.

What we believe is often what we receive. We can scare ourselves to death if we concentrate on "evil demons." We can spend all our money buying peanut butter sandwiches that look like Jesus on eBay. Or, we can finally realize that our fears give evil its power, and do our best to concentrate on good.

"Demons" provide a real service for mankind. If you do something bad and blame it on a "demon" then it's conveniently not your fault. You can say, "The devil made me do it." That's a cousin to, "Look what you made me do," which may be the oldest cop-out known. Other cousins are, "I heard a voice that told me to murder all my neighbors," and, "God spoke to me and told me to bomb Iraq... or kick all the Democrats out of church... (or take your pick)."

Naturally, if you're going to play this game it only makes good sense to have some type or "talisman" to protect you, wear garlic around your neck, carry a wooden stake, a silver bullet, and a silver cross, have a few powerful crystals and religious relics lying around in case of emergency, stay out from under ladders, and whatever you do, don't break a mirror.

There is so much beyond our ken, and that alone can make us fearful and superstitious. For myself, it's quite enough to deal with what we can know. Sometimes it's more than enough, thanks.

Ultimately, the human race can't move into a Type One Civilization (or if you prefer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven") as long as we let others control us by our imagined fears, and until we learn to take complete responsibility for our thoughts, words, and deeds.

[Jon-Marcus]

Are there demons?
Yes, I think so.
But, I have a long-standing rule that's worked for 43 years; I know they're there, I leave them alone, and they leave me alone.
After all, I got enough to deal with in the physical world.

[cherry]

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects
your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress
such as has not happened from the beginning of nations
until then. But at that time your people -- everyone whose
name is found written the the book -- will be delivered.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake:
some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting
contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness
of heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness,
like the stars for ever and ever.


Daniel 12

[Devastated]

Ascension.

[cherry]

I was at mass on the morning of November 19, 2000,
when one of the readings leaped out at me. I grew
physically cold, as I realized what I was seeing.

I dropped the missal and stared ahead, barely hearing
the mass that was now proceeding without one of its
participants.

What I had read appeared to be a direct prophecy
about this time, and the Master of the Key. But how
could I be involved in such a thing? It was crazy.
I don't belong doing this. At most, I 'm a minor writer,
hardly even a comma on the page of literature. And yet,
here was this prophecy, and it seemed to be about the
master and above all, about the essence of his warning
and the essence of this message.

On that night, he had called himself 'Michael.' He had
prophesied a terrible future, and told me enough about it
to enable me to write a book of warning that was based
in solid science. And here, in the book of Daniel, was
was another version of that same exact warning.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince
which standeth for the children of thy people . . . .

Whitley Strieber
The Key
pp.103-104

[Lord Moon]

in our selves....

When people stop believeing that they have the power to effect change in the world or in themvelves then of course they will turn to fantasies of all powerful all knowing demons/Angeles that will save us from ..... ourselves.....


Since I don't believe in the bible I could care less what Michael said...

[Devastated]

You don't have to believe in order for it to work....