Malachi Martin stirred many passions.

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Ninerism
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Post by Ninerism » 04-15-2002 05:01 PM

MERCURY: You have enriched my thinking on many things on this matter as to what may or maynot be true about Malachi Martin, as you present more information for Maryals considerations, and me, too. And I also now understand more clearly where she had positioned her own interests in the man, since he is one of the few critiquing the Catholic Church, I believe or incorrectly assume (since I donot read critiques about Catholicism or the Church, per se).

Moreover, you have gone to what I, too, believe are the wonderful teaching of Jesus, and that to me is most clearly understood from His Sermon On The Mount (from my feeble perspective). And that compassion is what I find most appealing about Jesus's teachings, which is the essence of what his heart revealed to us -- not an easy thing to accomplish in this materialistically driven world. That sort of philosophy of mind-and-heart does not require any sort of revision, to my thinking, does not require any sorts of 'compassionate conservativism' either, as if Republicans can re-write the relevance of the Sermon On The Mount, I would be most astonished! ha ha ha

So, how did you get to become such a very enlightened Catholic, then? Your ideas and thoughts, to me, represent the very best of religion and politics -- one of enlightenment and compassion for others plight. I thought most Catholics were kept so busy on contemplating matters of theology and exercising dogmas, and look how wrong that position is known to be!

Ninerism

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Post by Cherry Kelly » 04-16-2002 11:09 AM

In spite of all thereading - the premise of evil and its existence has not been daunted by the new book.

Each human being (as well as any living matter) gives off an aura. Those aura's can indeed be 'discolored by evil' just as they are by diseases.

I continue to have great difficulties believing the contents of the book being discussed. Questions remain on the credibility involved. You hire a detective to find out specific evidences - you will get 'specific evidences' - even if manufactured. Find a few disgruntled people - instill in them through hints that their problem was created by XYZ and they will grab at it and affirm it.

Ever signed a letter "with love" -- better think twice about doing so again you may become famous and some day that letter will be used as a nefarious affair. Image

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Post by Hilda Sophia » 04-16-2002 01:26 PM

My understanding is that the author's ex-wife married a lawyer and may still be alive living in NYC.

Will be hearing from her? And if so, can we believe it? Put yourself in her position. Would you say anything at this late date?

Once I was going to write about my cheating ex-husband and name names, but have lost interest over time. It doesn't matter now.

Why didn't this fellow just keep it to himself? Why try to make money off it now?

[This message has been edited by Hilda Sophia (edited 16 April 2002).]

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Post by eliza_nightvoice » 04-17-2002 05:19 AM

Just a side comment.

We are discussing 2 Malachi Martins here. One is the venerable old man who raled against evil. The other is the young Irish priest, flying high in the hallways of power.

He was from the era when an Irish second son really didn't have too many life options. The first son got the farm; the second son got the Church. I can see the scenerio of some hanky-panky taking place by a young, handsome, verile man. I'm not saying that vows were broken.

Then there is the sage Martin, who lived in New York and was upright and ultra-conservative in his theology.

To paraphrase Shakespear in "Much Ado About Nothing": As a man ages, does not his appetites alter?

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Post by Ninerism » 04-18-2002 11:32 PM

ELiza_Nightvoice: More welcome insights from you! Psychodynamics are quite important, especially when discussing intriguing authors.

Thanks.
Ninerism

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Post by Guest » 04-21-2002 01:36 PM

Greetings to all,

I will confess that this particular topic is outside my area of interest, in that I am normally very reluctant to become involved in religious discussions. Rather I am posting this at the request of Maryals because she feels that, as a scientist who strives to be open minded, I am detached enough to be able to make credible comments. Specifically, I've been asked to make a comment on the idea that an individual can walk down the street and note the presence of evil in certain of those individuals about him. To a scientist this sounds fantastic, but let's see this for what it may well be, in at least certain instances. In fact, let's give it a name. For want of anything better I call it Threat Assessment; a term commonly used among martial artists. Which brings me to a short story...

Some years ago I introduced two men to one another. To my knowledge they'd never met before and yet each immediately pointed at the other and said "I've know you from somewhere. I have seen you before." It took them a little while to figure it out, but ultimately it turned out that they'd walked past one another, without speaking, in a post office parking lot...six years earlier! That was all. That was it, the only contact they'd ever had with one another. Yet, in that brief moment each recognized the other for a formidable individual, an opponent to be respected as dangerous and reckoned with accordingly. As to who the two men were, well, one was the martial arts Master with whom Maryals and I trained for years and from whom she got her black belt. The other man was my father. By the way, following the introduction the two men got along famously.

The point to this story is that, from a scientific standpoint, it is not readily explainable, and yet I was there to witness it. Likewise, I believe in the presence of evil in this world, as difficult as it might be to quantify and measure the concept, because I can not doubt the evidence of my own eyes. Therefore, based on my own personal experience (the story being but one example), I would not discount the idea that certain individuals are gifted and/or trained to a much higher degree of threat assessment than are most of us. While I am also aware that many of those who purport to see evil, threats, etc. are either unbalanced or agenda driven, it is comforting to me that there walk among us some few unsung heroes who are able to recognize evil for what it is and confront it accordingly. For I do believe that the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. And "nothing" starts with failure to recognize evil, for what it is - a force that has nothing to do with race, religion, education, nationality, etc. - wherever it is.

So now you know why I am more comfortable restricting myself to topics of science; the phenomena there are easier to measure, understand, and explain.

Rainmaker

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Post by Linnea » 04-21-2002 07:19 PM

Thanks to all who have participated in this topic. I've gotten a lot out of the ideas and discussion. And, it is a very important topic. The power of inner discrimination is the guide and measure of each choice we make along the path of our journey. Excellent, Rainmaker and Maryals.

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Post by anya46 » 04-21-2002 07:23 PM

Dear Maryals & RM:

Interesting point and story.
Especially since I'v just finished reading Gavin DeBeckers' book, 'The Gift of Fear' -

to paraphrase(badly: 'Logic plods along; intuition soars'

And whether or not the danger is to our soul or our body (or both), intuition is by far the most reliable and sure guide to deliver us from immediate harm.

I'm all for logic, but being a woman and a mother of young children, I know without any doubt that listening to intuition will keep me safe every time.

Pax

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Post by Mercury » 04-22-2002 08:49 PM

Ninerism, thank you for the kind comments. Your question "(s)o, how did you get to become such a very enlightened Catholic, then? " has a very simple answer for me. I use the brain and heart God gave me. Like you, I see the message of Jesus as very straight forward. The Catholic Church is just the vehicle I've inherited for it's expression. And like the protesters who chanted to the East German Gov't right before the wall came down, "Wir bleiben Hier!" (We're staying here!...[it's you, our leaders who must change!]) I too say to the Catholic hierarchy that I'm staying put! My ancestors built, contributed to, and suffered at the hands of this church. So it's every bit mine as much as it is theirs. I know their politics and policies will change again just as they always have over the centuries. And in the meantime, I'll raise my voice whenever I think necessary to remind them of who and what we and they are. And whose simple, clear message they are supposed to spread (and live).



[This message has been edited by Mercury (edited 22 April 2002).]

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Post by Mercury » 04-22-2002 08:56 PM

anya46, how well did you know Martin? I'd be very interested in your input if you feel you can give it here. Anway, I'm not sure if you read the early part of this thread but I have a Jesuit friend who knew Martin and told me "odd" things about him a very long time ago. So that's why I was predisposed to belive Kaiser's story when it broke.

Maryals, I know where you are comming from, but personally I guess we'll have to disagree...I do belive that "liberation theology" should be a real focus of the church. It's a difficult issue, I understand, but that's what my inner voice tells me and that's where I stand. I don't think Justice, Compassion, Liberty and Equality before God has to wait for the next world. We can strive for it here too, if we want to.

[This message has been edited by Mercury (edited 22 April 2002).]

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Post by Mercury » 04-23-2002 05:17 PM

Re: Liberation Theology (a concept to which Martin, the present Pope and most conservative Catholics are opposed) - here's a pretty good definition for those who are unfamiliar with the term:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> "Liberation Theology" began with the awareness that it is blasphemous to care for people's souls while ignoring their needs for food, shelter and human dignity.

"As Jesus participated in the suffering of the poor, and proclaimed to them the good news of justice and freedom, so must today's church engage in the struggle for justice in this world."

"Across the world, gross inequities persist, and deepen. More of the world's poor are crowded into ever more hopeless conditions. Yet the earth's plenty is far from running out. In nation after nation, a tiny minority of the wealthy hold vast areas of fertile land (and wealth). The deadly connection between land-ownership/wealth concentration and wretched poverty is absurdly obvious on every continent."
</font>
[This message has been edited by Mercury (edited 23 April 2002).]

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Post by eliza_nightvoice » 04-23-2002 06:16 PM

Liberation theology, inheriting a faith system, fish and kings

"Liberation theology", a gift from modern Jesuit thought, goes too far in the interpretation of Christ and, at best, using a golfing metaphor: misses the green and rolls into a sand trap. Christ is recorded as saying as sending a message back to the Baptist that He "preach(ed) the acceptable year of the Lord." This "acceptable Year was also called the Jubilee Year, which was to return the tribes of Judah back to their original condition: debts forgiven and land returned to the original tribe. (An aside: even though this was one of the laws given to Moses, it was never complied with throughout the history of the Hebraic peoples.) This is the only hook that "LT has to hang its hat on scripturally. Remember, one of the main critisisms of Jesus of Nazareth as a "teacher" was that He ate and drank with, yes the lower classes, but also ate with those in power. To the lower classes, he preached, not revolution, but a time for them to come and inherit in another world to come - a world of mansions, fullfilment and rest on the chest of Abraham.

Wish everyone involved in religious bigotry realized what you said. We inherit our faith system from our "tribe". It's not something to war over, argue over or to get people to switch tribes. Howebver, sometimes one must leave the confinds of a tribe to express the inner self. Especially, using Wayne Dyer's concept: sometimes you need to turn and the tribe wants to go straight. Or Emerson's following the beat of a different drummer.

On "fish and Kings" later. My microwave just rang.

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Post by Mercury » 04-23-2002 08:47 PM

Nightvoice, that was a very interesting post. When you say "(Jesus) preached, not revolution, but a time for them to come and inherit in another world to come - a world of mansions, fullfilment..", I think the key phrase is "world to come." Yes he spoke of the afterlife, but I'm not so sure that the world to come was limited to the world AFTER Death. An argument could be made that it addresses a post-roman-occupation world. But there is much more to his message than that as well.

I don't think it is recorded that Jesus said we should focus ONLY on the world after DEATH. The Church may have spun it that way for political and practical reasons, but striving for a better world seems very much in concert with his "brotherhood" message. So, like the Liberation Theology crowd, I tend to agree that essentially it really is blasphemy to worry about rituals and sacraments while ignoring the welfare of our fellow man. To ignore the state of one's fellow man in this world seems to pervert a huge part of christianity's essential message of love, compassion and forgiveness. I can't see how focusing on the "spiritual" alone as the Church feels it should is enough to qualify anyone as being compassionate or loving.


Finally, of course, it is all a matter of personal choice and interpretation and what we've inherited. My view of what is right and wrong is shaped by so many factors and is not limited solely to what flows from explicit statements in Scripture or vatican edicts. I think the spirit of the text itself has it's own voice and is understood by each of us as best we can. So too, each age hears that voice in a slightly different way, and our understanding changes over time. A good example is how for centuries the Bible (and New Testament) was used to justify slavery. Personally, though it was not explicitly condemned, I don't see how Slavery jives with a message of love and compassion, yet the folks alive then thought it did. In the end interpretation is really up to us. If I am wrong here, and Jesus's message was truly indifferent to the lives of living men and women, then perhaps I should give up the fight and no longer associate myself with the term Christian. Who knows.



[This message has been edited by Mercury (edited 23 April 2002).]

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Post by eliza_nightvoice » 04-23-2002 09:26 PM

Mercury, I was not referring to an afterlife.
From my readings on the historical Jesus of Nazareth and his teachings (trying to find the real message under the layers of interprtation), I don't think Jesus was referring to it either. I think (and still refining my thoughts on this, so bear with me) that the key phrase is the "kingdom is within you" so that whatever one's social status there is the possibility of living a life of fullness and having needs met graciously (mansions for housing, overflowing cups). This world would not depend on socio-political power, but full human actuation (Maslow).

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Post by Ninerism » 04-24-2002 03:12 PM

Mercury: I wonder sometimes how it is that the most simple, and profound, message of Jesus becomes so terribly "confused" and distorted.

Are your positions representative of general Catholic populations? Or, is your position of enlightenment less representative of (some) Catholic populations? I just wonder on how your positions of enlightenment are statistically represented regarding, say, Catholic populations in the United States?

Incidentally, I too believe in the necessity of endorsing Liberation Theology, and you may find the following interesting.

Some time ago, years ago, I had sent out some money to support TFP, which as you may know is an organization, Catholic inspired, known as 'Tradition, Family, Property', and was begun by a famous Spanish-language writer-author/Catholic-philosopher, whose name I donot presently recall, from a South American country, I believe.

Anyway, this was during the radicalized Reagun years. I began to read the literature, and found it to be extremely hostile to the modern age in numbers of ways; or sought to resurrect some extraordinary things which I found were aversive to present-day thinking (sorry this is so very murky here).

The TVP literature would constantly focus on living a very simple life, free from all material possessions, that was my take on the matter. Their TFP 'zine would display artworks which I felt to be on the order of 'peasant artistry' quite plain and very austere (is this making any sense here?). It was as if by austerity, people would find God, that sort of thinking, which I found to be not necessarilly true for all of us, and seemed to be a reaction against modern age, and that to me is not healthy thinking, necessarilly, trying to resurrect former times.

Anyway, one day two well-dressed men, dressed in black suits, came to the front door of my house, my home, and knocked, stood there at least five minutes, and then prior to departing, left their calling cards and indicating that they were from the TFP, though I was quite skeptical for some vague feelings. At that time there was a lot of politlcal turmoil -- and it just seemed to me that those men were actually government agents (this is terribly difficult to condense here in a few paragraphs), though suffice to say, it seemed that there was some political surveillance going on. There is more to this, but will leave it.

My distinct impression was that some politics here, and in numbers of Central and South American nations were being extremely radicalized..... and that TFP, for good or ill, was being used, too. I felt that it had to do with property rights ultimately, and I knew that such things were and are quite problematic in numbers of Spanish-speaking countries. Liberation Theology, I did know, rankled many here, too! It was bordering on supporting communism, as some might seek to confuse the matter.

Ninerism

[This message has been edited by Ninerism (edited 24 April 2002).]

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