Malachi Martin stirred many passions.

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Ninerism
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Post by Ninerism » 04-30-2002 01:45 PM

Anya46: Fair enough.

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Post by Mercury » 04-30-2002 07:00 PM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">anya46 said: "Those views were: a womans' right to abortion, homosexuality and pediophilia are an acceptable lifestyles, etc.,etc. Those are beliefs I now oppose."
</font>
Ah yes the so-called "conservative christian" view. Fr. Martin publicly espoused it well (if not hypocritically?) and sadly, anya46 restates part of it here. Really, WHO ARE YOU anya, to lump homosexuals (i.e. consenting adults!) in the same basket as Pedophiles (i.e. criminals!)?? Please show me where Jesus ever uttered a word against gays? Further gay sex sure isn't a "crime" (at least where I live). Pedophila, on the other hand, is a crime. But while we're at it, ok, here are some things I might oppose:
  • the hypocracy of all persons engaged in the "heterosexual lifestyle" who think it is an accepable lifestyle to have at one time themselves lived with various sex partners, screwed like bunnies, (and maybe have spawned some kids,) eventually get married (then perhaps divorced and re-married) yet who miraculously later in life (when they've had their fun, are older and "past it") suddenly "find God"... not just any god mind you, but a narrow version of a god who perfectly reflects their own particular small-minded, middle american prejudices against gay people.
I could go on. But I won't. I too am straying from topic.



[This message has been edited by Mercury (edited 30 April 2002).]

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Post by Mercury » 05-01-2002 08:50 PM

.

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Post by Ninerism » 05-02-2002 02:05 AM

Mercury: Well, I for one believe that there is real virtue in the quest to produce billions of more human beings on Earth, or else we all might simply vanish! And one more thing, it says in the Bible, 'be frutiful and multiply', and that means that there should never ever be any birth control, too.

The virtues of parenthood are a real business bonana, er, bonanza, too. More babies means more baby-carts, more baby-beds, and baby-clothes, and stuff like that, and later cute baby becomes big-consumer, and then more things get sold, and it is a vicious cycle, but it helps keep us all busy,and more houses get sold, and populations keep booming to support the elderly, and on and on it goes, and if it isn't one thing, it's another.

I donot think that there is any validity to over-population, since there is lots of space in Alaska, for one thing. And, well, someone's got to man the front-lines and man the fox-holes for wars, too. So, this makes war good for humankind, too, since it provides cullings and eventual needs for replenishments and reduces poverty, and really neat stuff like that....

It is always so neat to see parents who say that their precious Johnny will grow-up to be a big killer-soldier, marching off to righeous wars. Johnny just "looks so good in uniform", you always here that one!

Sing along now, "WHEN JOHNNY COMES MARCHING HOME AGAIN, HURRAH, HURRRAH, WHEN JOHNNY COMES MARCHING HOME AGAIN, HURRAH! HURRAH!"

Having fun.
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Post by Ninerism » 05-02-2002 02:13 AM

Readers: I read somewhere that Jesus had his John, the Beloved.... perhaps a perfected love, even if "merely" of the mind and heart. What's wrong with that? The ancient Greeks revered and rejoiced in the love of a man for a man. Great poetry existed in honoring the love of men. Shakespeare knew love of a man (and woman) too, and thus his love sonnets dedicated to his male love. Rabbis must be married, and Jesus was never married.

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Post by Ninerism » 05-02-2002 02:34 AM

Anya45: Well, of course when I responded, 'fair enough', it was with regard to those sentiments of your's which were rationl, and the irrational stuff speaks for itself, too.

Readers:
When people do place same-sex lovers in the same context as evil-doers, they know what they are doing, and it is not very nice.

For instance, some conservatives such as Limbaugh love to do that sort of thing, as if they get a personal rush by seeking to defame others via word-associations.

People-religious, that is ones who want to be thought-of by others as religious, as if 'spiritual', oftentimes engage in very nasty forms of casting aspersions upon those they donot even know, or those whom they wish to easily castigate, mostly because they are quite ignorant, and really donot see the viciousness of their own unresolved conflicts within.

It usually is a result of classic projection -- projecting forms of despisements/castigations upon individuals or groups of individuals, so as to elevate their own self-worth. They usually hope to rabble-rouse.... it provides them a secret motivation to find personal satisfaction, since they cannot be happy within themselves unless they are putting other people into hell.

This is seen a lot with people who are especially not filled with much respect for themselves, or as a way to gain political favors (hence their hypocricy from things religious) -- so they use religion to bolster their own feelings of inadequacy, and they secretly love to send barbs or pithy comments to others. Their own dis-satisfactions in life are the misery they perpetuate in many ways.

This sad phenomena is widely seen in numbers of so-called "ministers", especially the ones who love to damn gays publicly, because they live such futile lives themselves, glorying in hate-mongering. They really donot have any respect for differences -- and usually they are driven with ego-centric power-lusts, at the expense of others.

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Post by Cherry Kelly » 05-02-2002 09:56 AM

With regards to anya's post - perhaps some are jumping to the conclusion instead of looking at what anya wrote as a LIST of things...?? viewpoints that have changed.

I have my own views on abortion as do all of us. I have views on homosexuality vs heterosexuality relationships as do all of us. I have views on pedophiles - etc etc. If I lumped them together in one sentence and said I have views on abortion, homosexuality and pedophiles - it would taken as individual items - at least I would hope they would be - with regards to the English language and sentence structure.

I still hold to my views on Fr Malachi with regards to hi information regarding the Vatican. Do I hold to the book out about him - no. Do I think him incapable of such - probably not, he is after all a man (as in human) and humans are capable of foibles. Do I believe that he did so - not at the moment. (AS noted I want all the facts not just innuendoes.)

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Post by anya46 » 05-02-2002 01:38 PM

"...abusers and calumniators are not out to get the truth, to build up, to edify. Their bent is to destroy, to liquidate. Hence, no matter what information you give them, they will not desist; they will use it to further their distrustful ambition. Hence, I found that there was no point in even trying to communicate with them; anything they learned became merely grist for their grindstones of hate."

" Nothing will ever change the minds of these people—nothing except the grace of God."
+Malachi

This started out as a wonderful thread - now it's deteriorated to one or two posters who obviously cannot stand anything positive to be said about MM or the Catholic Church (at least any traditional Church).
I'll leave you to yourselves.
I'm obviously not progressive-minded enough for the likes of you.

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Post by Mercury » 05-02-2002 06:21 PM

Oh anya, STOP acting like a little girl! You're big enough to post quite strongly what you think, yet you threaten to run off when other people disagree. Most of us here manage to hear each other out. Like adults. If you can't do that too without getting "huffy" and running away, you have only yourself to blame...NOT other posters.



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Post by Mercury » 05-02-2002 06:52 PM

Cherry, I see what you're saying. That is an interesting take on her post. But now I guess she'll never tell us so we'll never know.

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Post by Cherry Kelly » 05-03-2002 09:51 AM

Mercury - sad to say probably not.

I truly liked Fr Malachi for the message he brought to us in his writings and from listening to him on Art Bell. As noted I still have a great deal of difficulty believing the book out about him (negative) - not only from the stand point that he is not alive to refute it, but also that the "proof" seems to be shady...

People often misinterpret situations. The man neglected his wife and appears to be seeking a scapegoat reason for their divorce - so why not make it the biggest name around? (and one who is no longer alive to refute it). Maybe it did turn into more than just a priest consoling a distraught parishoner - anything is possible. It does not distract from the wonderful information he brought to the world in his later years.

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Post by Ninerism » 05-03-2002 10:58 PM

Cherry Kelly: Actually, no. From what is intended, when not lumping subject-matters together; and yet writing 'pedophilia and homosexuality' rather than placing a comma between the two, such as 'pedophilia, and homosexuality', provides a distinct challenge since the two in the former case are blended or inter-mixed with the word 'and', and that therefore is a gramatically incorrect sentence structure, unless of course that is what the writer intends to infer.

Most child molestations occur from heterosexuals, and thus, we could say, 'heterosexuality and pedophilia', though that, too, would be quite incorrect, when the truth of the matter is that there are few heterosexuals who are interested in children, statistically speaking, even though statistics prove heterosexuals are not better than homosexuals in that arena and are actually far worse.

Commas are important in sentence structure or not. I just left out a comma in that previous sentence.

Readers:
I am wondering, too, why some here think that any disputes they may find offensive about any given subject-matter are thus construed to be about them as posters?! Where does such confusion arise, but in their own mind, not in the mind of those here who are quite well-equipped at discussing things from a non-egocentric driven viewpoint on things-religious. We have seen this time and again -- the abuses wrought from very tired ad hominem attacks on those who merely post view-points at opposition to some.

These discussions are not really about any poster here, though some want to think that just because any person writes things which are not in complete obeissance to Catholicity, are damned to hell, and that is merely more ad hominem attacks, which tactics are really specious and ridiculous, and have no merit in 'argumentation' process, or discussion processes. Why is this still being done?

I will say again, for those who dare to think, they will find questions about any organization, any group, any church, and probably have damn good reason to pose those questions for all of us to consider.

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Post by Ninerism » 05-03-2002 11:08 PM

Readers: In Anya46 posting, in writing 'homosexuality and pedophilia', there was a comma omitted between the two terms, unless of course, Anya46 truly thinks and equates both? THAT suggests an enormous bias verging on real bigotry, though am certain she didnot mean to imply that both are to be thought of in the same breath? She or the moderator can merely add the comma to correct the offense.

These sorts of things, even from persons-religious, knowing how innuendos do hold hatred disguised, should not be thought of as merely splitting hairs as to proper constructs of English language. THAT sort of language tactic is used by the most ardent fag-baiters seen in the Christian arenas, those fundamentalists, which unfortunately are mostly Protestants, or so they think. If those nutty-fundies had lions in their den, you can be sure those lions would be well-fed if any homosexuals came "lurking" in their environs and domiciles. Such is the "sweetness" of ignorance and fear. Just give 'em a Bible, and they are blissed-out in righteousness, dear God!

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Post by Ninerism » 05-03-2002 11:10 PM

Readers: Ok, get ready for some terrible and most shocking news I am going to say, and without equivocations: The man had feet of clay!

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Post by eliza_nightvoice » 05-05-2002 06:14 AM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ninerism:
Readers: Ok, get ready for some terrible and most shocking news I am going to say, and without equivocations: The man had feet of clay! Ninerism</font>
Because he was human, or do you have some insight that you have not expressed?

MM had a duty to expose instances where an organization ("The Church"), to which he belonged and was considered an administrator, had made decisions that affected the health and well-being of its members. We all have that duty. I celebrate the courage it took for him to speak out and the creative method he took to make the expositions.

I keep hearing the quotation "Judge not, least ye be judged." While we cannot judge MM's life events and his latter year statements, he did not have the authority to judge others. The only one who has the authority is the life giver, who is totally other ("My ways are not your ways", recorded as being said to Job). Maat weighs the heart against the weight of a feather. An enthrowned Christ divides his flock according to those who have "done unto others", and thus did unto him.

Just a Sunday morning rambling.

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