Malachi Martin stirred many passions.

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Ninerism
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Post by Ninerism » 04-24-2002 03:29 PM

Mercury: Exactly. "World to come" may not be required to transcend corporeality, as we are in and of the natural world, with our spirits imbued into the physical plane. So, just as you, I see real sound spiritual values in presenting justice for the 'here and now', and not just seeking some extraordinary after-life filled with Nirvana.

For instance, when many Christians opposed slavery of Blacks (and others!), it was in opposition to many Churches teachings or presentiments. The Church or Christian churches of Protestantism didnot necessarilly promote Blacks having social freedoms.

So, 'liberation theology' may not have been advocated via the Catholic-Christian and Protestant churches, though groups of enlightened people did discern that slavery needed to be opposed, and it was based upon individual's collective assessments and collective coalitions which led to slavery being abolished. One could say, too, that this was in the best CATHOLIC-PROTESTANT heritage of opposing social ills -- and whereby social reformations were achieved by individuals acting upon their God-given conscience, despite the "sluggish-ness" or "stubbborness" or historical intractableness of church doctrines/dogmas or attitudes, and thus to merely discuss "churchy" "religious" things. What could be more SPIRITUAL then advocating FREEDOM FOR ALL HUMANKIND? That social egalitarianism has a real spiritual component right HERE on Earth. Why is that so difficult for some to acknowledge?

Ninerism

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Post by Ninerism » 04-24-2002 03:53 PM

Rainmaker: I enjoyed reading your posting. Subjectivity may cause objectivity to occur, eventually, just as many scientists do discover breakthroughs, personally, and thus oppose the prevailing ideas/thoughts/theories of science, which, as we all know, too, is not a sacred cow.

I suppose that there can be extraordinary individuals who do "see" or somehow sense things in the spritual worlds that many of us cannot, and those people may not even be 'of the cloth', or even church-sponsored.

What I found to be most curious in Malachi Martin's assessments about having encountered so many people in New York as having been 'perfectly possessed', which was being said as a man 'of the cloth', a minister, a Catholic Priest, is that he seemed to spread fear by the manner in which he had chosen to express his own most personal insight. Never having heard any 'man of the cloth', nor Rabbi, nor preacher/minister/pastor, nor any other religious figure ever state anything on that order, it seemed to me that it was coming from a man who wanted to make certain that everyone knows of his own 'special powers' of discernment, even if unsubstantiated or never corroborated by any other Catholic Priests or other men 'of the cloth'.

It could be just as easily positied that that sort of very individualized and most affronting assessment of humankind is truly ego-centrically driven, if none others 'of the cloth' could confirm his singular pronouncements. Since he was speaking from the point of view of a man 'of the cloth' as a Catholic Priest, his statements probably are not even confirmed by the Catholic Church, from what I believe are very direct ways to assess and "measure" what sorts of demonic possession may allegedly exist about any one man.

To take the subjectivity of people 'looking for a fight' or 'being on-guard' or 'needing to feel vigilant about an attack', as people who are trained in martial arts, and then translate that into spiritual-assessments of other's is rather extraordinary in and of itself. The martial arts thinking is always that of a person who must feel that an attack from someone, somewhere, is imminent, and maybe that should be challenged as un-healthy thinking, as a non-healthy way to "live" life and philosophize about others.

There are necessary disctinctions as to what methods, what machines, what measuring sticks, what tools are used to derive at any "measurements" or analysis of any given "experiment", and thus standards are importantly established, just as you as a scientist are most comfortable in knowing that true scientific methodology exists as a precursor for establishing quantifications/ qualifications or results. A certain prescribed criteria does exist in scientific methodology.

Such likely requirements to truly assess 'perfectly possessed' people being quite commonly seen or encountered on the streets of any city should make us all a bit suspicious as to the intent of Malachi Martin, who was not asking any other 'men of the cloth' to contribute to his quick analysis. He left himself open to being dis-regarded, even though he sure wants everyone to believe him because he is a Catholic Priest, hence of some ostensible spritual discernments.

If he condensed this important matter too much, it did none the less offend some listeners who were neither predisposed to being his supporter nor his detractor. And this does result in my questions as to the psychological soundness of such brief encounters in passing persons on the streets and declaring them to be 'perfectly possessed', which as stated previously, isnot so much about 'energy disturbances' or 'psychic impressions of disturbances' as much as it is a declaration from a man who wants to be believed that he alone could so quickly assess spritual darkness prevailing in those whom he alone saw as 'perfectly possessed'.

It did seem a bit ego-centrically derived from the way he stated it in the context of titillating or bringing fear to audiences of ART BELL.

It did seem, more to the point, a man who understood the audiences of ART BELL, looking for a thrill, a way to be entertained with a bit of fear, and obviously Malachi Martin was capable of doing that, and need not have to stoop to a low-cut assessment of those New Yorkers he encountered so very briefly.

It could be just as easily deduced that from a 'threat assessment', the poor man didnot feel so very protected by God; or maybe he was simply agoraphobic? Or knows how some New Yorkers may feel at times? I just wonder how he would have viewed men on the streets in cities known to be non-Christian, then? My God, think of it, the profoundness of those without Jesus who are thus known to be 'perfectly possessed'?!

Ninerism

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[This message has been edited by Ninerism (edited 24 April 2002).]

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Post by eliza_nightvoice » 04-24-2002 09:07 PM

9'er,
One of the laws regarding the Jubilee Year was the freeing of slaves and bonded servents held by the children of Israel. So, scripturally speaking,when Jesus of Nazareth declared that He was preaching the acceptable year of the Lord, He was referring to the coventant release of slaves, under the Law of Moses.

I still go back to the words "My Kingdom is not of this world" and "all authority has been given to you" expressed during the confrontation with Pilate. Plus the fact the Jesus did not align Himself with the zealot party, who was dedicated to the physical overthrow of an oppressive regime.

That's where LT does not smoothly dovetale with the totality of the Nazorean's teachings. He was a teacher of a spiritual realm, not a polictical one; a spiritual master, not a radical reformist. But I do agree that, by following His teachings, there would be a dramatic effect in the body politic. Imagine a political entity fulling conforming to a "love your neighbor as yourself" founding precept. Now, THAT's radical and achieves LT goals without resort to political upheaval. "Pie in the sky thinking"? Yes. But a deminutive laywer from India incorporated some of these concepts and freed a nation from the yoke of a colonizer.

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Post by Mercury » 04-24-2002 09:40 PM

Niner' that is very interesting and creepy story about the TFP! I know there were many similar orgs in Central America during the revolutions of the 80's in places like Nicaragua, El Salvador etc. Many such orgs were heavily linked to the Sandanistas and even more extreme and radical groups so the "turn back the clock" stuff you report here is not surprising. But it does not represent all the Liberation Theology folks. In fact some of the crazy stuff may have actually been produced by the Right to discredit Leftist reformers (the Contras were excellent disinformation experts ...thanks to US /CIA help!). So I'd bet those visitors you got were Govt guys...those were really funky times as we know!

As for Catholicism, no my views are not mainstream US Catholic views at all. Europe is a different story. They have a longer tradition of liberal thought there. For example American Catholics do not know that the Church enforces different rules in different places: You don't have to go to confession to receive communion in France, yet here you do. Also they were permitted to eat meat on Fridays in most of Europe for 20 years before it was permitted here. The Irish Church however (out of which sprang M. Martin) is still the most conservative branch in Europe and the large number of Irish priests who dominate the US Church has continued that bent here as well.


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Post by Mercury » 04-24-2002 09:54 PM

Nightvoice, yes, now I understand what you're saying. And you have raised a compelling issue. I've recently read some interesting things about Jesus's possible years in India, Gospel of Thomas (Kingdom Within), etc. It is interesting. "Change yourself to change the world"... He may have had a more "eastern" flavor than we know.

As for Maslow, it's been a long time, so I'm not sure, but didn't he mean "human actuation" to be a setting-in-motion of man's potential? That once we are self-actualized we'd be fullfilled (and act in very just, positive ways and the world would thereby become a better place). Yet I believe he also said it was only AFTER the basic needs are met that anyone CAN BE self-actualized. So, if that is the case, wouldn't we still find ourselves confronted with the basic human needs question (which would depend on social and political power/action since few can be self-actualized without the basic needs being met)?



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Post by Mercury » 04-24-2002 10:29 PM

Nightvoice, I see your point about Jesus not aligning himself with the zealot party, who were "dedicated to the physical overthrow of an oppressive regime." But again I think we have to view this in the context of his time. He was opposed to violence. Changing government in the ancient world required violence, and there was no way to vote the Romans out. But today a change of government does not depend on violent overthrow. We vote. Even in the third world there are elctions. So if we follow "the 'love your neighbor as yourself' founding precept", why wouldn't that necessarily be expressed through politics too... by voting for a government and officials whose policies makes concrete that love for one's fellow man (through health care, social equality, edu., welfare, land reform, etc) rather than supporting a government that ignores those issues?

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Post by Linnea » 04-24-2002 11:19 PM

Alright, you guys. I guess Snorrithor was right - we do need a religion topic. Coming up.

The Father Malachi Martin topic is more specific, and we are way off topic in here.

So - look for the religion topic...

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Post by Ninerism » 04-25-2002 12:16 AM

Linnea: Well, couldn't let a cliff-hanger go by without comment to things elucidated by MERCURY and Eliza_Nightvoice, as they both have provided such interesting colors to what could have been a totally bleak topic if just pertaining to one man who spoke as representative of Catholicity..... so these excursions, if you will, have been quite interesting, to say the least!

Mercury: Yes, I certainly did have the very distinct and on-edge feeling when observing those two men standing at my front door, both appearing to be in mid-thirties, quite robust-looking men, and who just had a demeanor, a "swagger", suggesting that they were some sort of government agents. Oh, and they came back to my house at least once that I know about, and I refused to answer the door, just due to their officious comportment. It really was spooky, kinda like 'men in black' reports we hear about so often on ART BELL, except these men were not driving a black car! ha ha ha They drove just an ordinary-looking mid-size car, as a matter of fact. Yes, that period was very disturbing in many ways. Oh, and worse yet, I had sent some South American affiliated church some donation, too, during that time, and I knew that that was a no-no with regard to our government's policies -- though those men were ostensible "agents" for TFP-stuff per the info they left at my doorstep. It was truly quite strange! They never once bothered to even write me a simple letter of explanation of their interest in my seeming support of things-TFP.

Mercury, I, too, had no idea that Europeans as Catholics had such different standards
than Catholic Americans. That truly is eye-opening.

I am wondering, too, when the Catholic Church will change its mind about celibacy, provide room for what should be understood as a most natural urge, embrace it, and just move on, because many people now understand that the Church's present dis-allowing of Priests to engage in marriage, hence providing them with a natural embracing of sexual-intercourse, is based more upon the desire of the Church to control PROPERTY, rather than about extremely tenuous "morality" issues of Priests being "married" to the Church.... and we kinda can see where that has led to many problems now, too, though I certainly donot define this problem so much as heterosexual versus homosexual urges/interests/inclinations. It seems more about the Church controlling Priests, so that they cannot really own property, hence, vow of poverty issues which appear to directly benefit mostly the organization in Rome. Then, too, Priests with no families to support are cheaper, with less required medical insurance, etc etc etc.

Eliza_Nightvoice, you provide so much depth to these various topics! THANK YOU.

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Post by Ninerism » 04-25-2002 12:21 AM

Mercury: I think that your coherency and reflective thinking is so very cogent and clear on numbers of issues. I totally agree with you, that even Jesus was a man of His times, and had to conduct Himself within the political realities of Rome at that time.

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Post by Hilda Sophia » 04-25-2002 12:36 PM

I just checked this book on Amazon and there is a review by a reader at last. He is more
concerned with the fact that the author was a reporter for TIME than in the subject matter. He gave it four out of five stars.

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Post by anya46 » 04-25-2002 03:46 PM

Mercury:

To answer your question how I knew Malachi -
he was the spiritual director for myself
and my husband (that includes hearing our confession).
As may be obvious by now, I'm more of an
orthodox Catholic than some others on the board (I'm a converted pagan).

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Post by eliza_nightvoice » 04-26-2002 05:00 AM

Another thought of the determination of "perfectly pocesses people" from just passing them on a street. Strange that he never indicated that one could sense very spiritual (holy, if you like) people from passing them on the street. I have personally experienced sensing the presence of these good souls much more often than being confronted with "perfectly posessed ones."

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Post by Ninerism » 04-26-2002 09:43 PM

Eliza_Nightvoice: When I read your post, I said outloud to myself, "Oh, WOW!", because that is a very aptly expressed sentiment, too, and why that is so important for all of us to know.... just as we have all no doubt experienced, seen and experiencing much more profound good walking around than evil. It is good to think about THAT, and focus on it.

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Post by Ninerism » 04-26-2002 09:49 PM

Anya46: I know that I am supposed to address this to you on the Religion arena, however, here it is: What is the basic difference you note or assess between pagans and those who believe in Christianity? (If I can condense such a question.)

The reason I ask is because one of my greatest heros is Dr. HELEN CALDICOTT, and she recently announced, via a replay of one of her recent public speeches, that she is a pagan.

She believes that the Christian world has been "in love" with power and has advocated or developed what I dub as Nuclear Faithing (placing faith not so much in God, as faith in weapons of mass-destruction, even though we all now know that MAD-ness, Mutually Assured Destrction, will probably annihilate most of humanity and animals and plants, which to me is a way of praising anti-life, a total irrationalism as I see it, and not even really very "christian").

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Post by anya46 » 04-30-2002 09:18 AM

Niner:

I'll try to be brief.
Maybe it would be more accurate to say I was
'unchurched', even though nowadays, the views and beliefs that I previously held are now quite acceptable within many so-called
'christian' communities.
Those views were: a womans' right to abortion, homosexuality and pediophilia are an acceptable lifestyles, etc.,etc.
Those are beliefs I now oppose.
I won't get into any arguments about why I now believe differently.
I'm trying to finish the school year and re-locate a household so it's not practical at this time.
I'd rather stay on the MM topic.

Pax

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