Who Lost Iraq?

War, News and Stories of Iraq

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Dude111
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Post by Dude111 » 06-19-2014 12:16 AM

Fan wrote: there is no arguing. If people think they can go kill other people with no justification then I am done trying to convince them otherwise.
The USA thinks they are king $hit Fan...... They boss the whole world around and think NO ONE CAN FIGHT BACK!!

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Post by kbot » 06-19-2014 05:56 AM

I think that the opposite is true. For most of our history this country followed a fairly isolationist policy until the invented reason for the Spanish-American War, and then the trail of bailing-out the Europeans who just wanted to kill each other.

The American people are sick and tired of having to bail-out other countries, and are also catching on to the games that governments and the banking industry plays in pitting countries against each other with the major weapons suppliers cleaning-up by supply weapons to both sides of a conflict. Think of the situation with Lenin and Trotsky being sent to Russia to overthrow the government and create a state that we've been in varying states of conflict with for nearly a century now - all bankrolled by America banks and banking families. THAT thought alone should make you stop and think. Then think of the conflicts with the former USSRs satellite allies and those wars. Think of what financial institutions bankrolled these wars and the weapons producers that cleaned-up in the process. This isn't "just" the USA - this spans multiple borders.

Was listening to a John B Wells segment last week and the discussion revolved around how a number of US military aircraft use parts supplied by Communist China - a clear violation of American law.

Situations like this are OK because we're talking corporations. But, let the average American citizen with no criminal record attempt to purchase a handgun per his constitutional rights and you have a UN-inspired program ready to fly a drone over his house and have the ATF send-in tanks and swat teams.........
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Post by Diogenes » 06-19-2014 09:56 AM

Dude111 wrote: The USA thinks they are king $hit Fan...... They boss the whole world around and think NO ONE CAN FIGHT BACK!!


Dude,

Is there another country where you would prefer to reside?
A man's character is his fate

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SquidInk
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mendacity twitch

Post by SquidInk » 06-19-2014 10:01 AM



Going straight to bullet points for this:
  • We (the people of the west) have very little idea what is actually going on in the world or why. We are given a scripted news feed, and from time to time we are able to distill an overlooked fragment of truth from the script. Over time (think JFK murder), if we are persistent, we can collect enough fragments to piece together a snapshot of reality. Unfortunately, there is a "real time" offset of about 50 years.
  • Does anyone still believe this is about freedom?
  • Let's be real. This is about:
    1. breaking down cultures
    2. building lucrative pipelines
    3. controlling natural resources
    4. banking
    5. installing cooperative puppet regimes
    6. causing division
    7. warping biblical prophesy
It's simply too late. The US vote in 2016 is meaningless for "the people", but the entire nation will once again roll out the sick dog and pony show as if it meant something. The "conservatives" will hate the "liberals" & the "liberals" will hate the "conservatives". The same old tired conversations and accusations will fly around. Then at the appropriate time the "American people" will frogmarch to "ballot stations" & "elect" a new "leader" to go and kill people in their name, thereby shouting yet another denial of the Sermon on the Mount.

It hardly matters if we cast the stone personally, or if we "vote" a proxy to do so for us in an effort to absolve ourselves of responsibility. When we decide to kill, or to support killers in their quests, we had better be damned certain of what we are doing.
Last edited by SquidInk on 06-19-2014 10:05 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: mendacity twitch

Post by kbot » 06-19-2014 10:55 AM

SquidInk wrote: When we decide to kill, or to support killers in their quests, we had better be damned certain of what we are doing.
\

And therein lies the conundrum. Going by what you think an elected official would do, you'd find that, once elected, things are going to happen anyway. My view is that the person is the oval office is pretty much a puppet anyway...
"If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there......."

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Dude111
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Post by Dude111 » 06-20-2014 03:20 AM

Diogenes wrote: Is there another country where you would prefer to reside?
Thats not the answer!!!!

I CAN SPEAK OUT.......... IT SHOWS HOW MUCH I DONT LIKE WHATS GOING ON!!!!!

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Post by kbot » 06-20-2014 05:43 AM

Some interesting numbers..........

Snippets:

10 companies profiting the most from war

The business of war is profitable. In 2011, the 100 largest contractors sold $410 billion in arms and military services. Just 10 of those companies sold over $208 billion. Based on a list of the top 100 arms-producing and military services companies in 2011 compiled by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), 24/7 Wall St. reviewed the 10 companies with the most military sales worldwide.

These companies have benefited tremendously from the growth in military spending in the U.S., which by far has the largest military budget in the world. In 2000, the U.S. defense budget was approximately $312 billion. By 2011, the figure had grown to $712 billion. Arm sales grew alongside general defense spending growth. SIPRI noted that between 2002 and 2011, arms sales among the top 100 companies grew by 51%.

10. United Technologies (UTX) -- aircraft, electronics, engines
Arm sales: $11.6 billion, total sales: $58.2 billion
Gross profit: $5.3 billion, total workforce: 199,900

9. L-3 Communications (LLL) -- electronics
Arm sales: $12.5 billion, total sales: $15.2 billion
Gross profit: $956 million, total workforce: 61,000

8. Finmeccanica -- aircraft, artillery, engines, electronics, vehicles and missiles
Arms sales, $14.6 billion, total sales: $24.1 billion
Gross profit: $ -3.2 billion, total workforce: 70,470

7. EADS -- aircraft, electronics, missiles and space
Arm sales: $16.4 billion, total sales: $68.3 billion
Gross profit: $1.4 billion, total workforce: 133,120

6. Northrop Grumman (NOC) -- aircraft, electronics, missiles, ships, space
Arm sales: $21.4 billion, total sales: $26.4 billion
Gross profit: $2.1 billion, total workforce: 72,500

5. Raytheon (RTN) -- electronics, missiles
Arm sales: $22.5 billion, total sales: $24.9 billion
Gross profit: $1.9 billion, total workforce: 71,000

4. General Dynamics (GD) -- artillery, electronics, vehicles, small arms, ships
Arm sales: $23.8 billion, total sales: $32.7 billion
Gross profit: $2.5 billion, total workforce: 95,100


3. BAE Systems -- aircraft, artillery, electronics, vehicles, missiles, ships
Arm sales: $29.2 billion, total sales: $30.7 billion
Gross profit: $2.3 billion, total workforce: 93,500

2. Boeing (BA) -- aircraft, electronics, missiles, space
Arm sales: $31.8 billion, total sales: $68.7 billion
Gross profit: $4 billion, total workforce: 171,700

1. Lockheed Martin (LMT) -- aircraft, electronics, missiles, space
Arm sales:$36.3 billion, total sales: $46.5 billion
Gross profit: $2.7 billion, total workforce, 123,000


[URLhttp://http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/bus ... r/1970997/[/URL]

While posting this I thought of two songs with pertinent lyrics.

From Jethro Tulls' old 1970s classic War Child:

No unconditional surrender; no armistice day ---
each night I'll die in my contentment and lie in your grave.

And, from Fleetwood Mac's Peacekeeper:

We make all of our sons the same
Every one will suffer the fire we've made
They all explode just the same
And there's no going back on the plans we've made


Only creatures who are on their way
Ever poison their own well
But we still have time to hate
And there's still something we can sell


------------------------------------------------------------------

"High morals" aside ("who's better..."), we need to face it, the government calls the shots and they work with their backers to make THEM profits........ In the final analysis, we're all enablers because we allow this.
"If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there......."

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Post by BenSlain » 06-20-2014 12:29 PM

Dude111 wrote: Thats not the answer!!!!

I CAN SPEAK OUT.......... IT SHOWS HOW MUCH I DONT LIKE WHATS GOING ON!!!!!


Yes you can. Then again if you spoke
Out in Iraq you would be a dead man.
Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been The champion of the world.

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Post by kbot » 06-21-2014 08:04 AM

BenSlain wrote: Yes you can. Then again if you spoke
Out in Iraq you would be a dead man.


Same goes for most other countries around the world.

Although, thanks to the government's policies on "free speech zones", we're rapidly heading in the same direction.

So much for "Government by the people, for the people.........."
"If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there......."

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Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes » 06-21-2014 02:37 PM

Dude111 wrote: Thats not the answer!!!!

I CAN SPEAK OUT.......... IT SHOWS HOW MUCH I DONT LIKE WHATS GOING ON!!!!!


Dude,

Don’t take my question the wrong way - I am frustrated and disgusted as well. I read about ex-pats and I think to myself where else would I rather reside and all considered there is no other country I would go to.

Now a different state is an entirely different matter.
A man's character is his fate

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Post by kbot » 06-22-2014 10:02 AM

was watching a professor from the University of Maryland on CSPAN earlier today. His name slips my mind, but, he was one of the originators and co-signers of a full-page ad that ran in the NY Times before the US invaded Iraq.

Although he could have taken the allotted time to go into a "I told you this would happen...." rant, he carefully explained the situation as it stands now, as well as gave an historical overview of the different factions in Iraq as well as the Mid East. It was a good segment.

Exactly as predicted, when the US pulled-out of Iraq, it created a power vacuum - although the signers back in 2002 could not have possibly known that Obama would be running the show.

I think that this was a failed experiment from the get-go. There were no WMD found - so he "official" reason given never panned out. A case could be made concerning Saddam and how terrible a ruler he was. But then we need to acknowledge that it was the US and weapons manufacturers who armed him and sat idly by as he killed his own people. And the link between Iraq an al Qaeda is questionable at best.

So, the speaker on CSPAN was making the case that, whatever good will the US enjoyed post Soviet collapse, and, even after the end of Gulf War I was squandered by the invasion of Iraq.

Countless Iraqi citizens were killed, thousands of US servicemen and women injured or killed, and a wide area of the Middle East is now covered with depleted uranium particulates that get kicked-up with each strong breeze.

The Iraqi economy has collapsed - there is no way that we will ever be repaid and war is expanding across the region.

If ever a government - GOP or Democrat, failed the country, it's been the past two administrations...... And we let it happen.
"If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there......."

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Post by SquidInk » 06-22-2014 11:51 AM

kbot wrote: If ever a government - GOP or Democrat, failed the country, it's been the past two administrations...... And we let it happen.
Unfortunately, we didn't simply "let it happen", as if we were just too darn busy to get around to doing something about it. Nope, we clamored for war after war. We spit venom at the weak knee'd "commies" who said it was the wrong thing to do. We wanted to believe the bullsh!ters when they told us terrorists were coming for us from every angle -- despite the overwhelming evidence, er... conspiracy theories... to the contrary. We committed intellectual acrobatics to justify all the killing, and we swore it was just "the price of freedom", and that it wasn't about big business. We rejected every single candidate who was taking isolationist/anti-war positions, even in moderation. Flat out denied them a voice.

We continue to do all of that and more, despite the now insanely overwhelming evidence that our entire government is, in fact, a massive global crime syndicate. I'd say at least half of the US still wants to vote for war mongering proxies who will drop bombs all over the world, because... America! Exceptionalism! Judeo Christian!

Gah. :realmad:

It's become disgusting. Much like the histories we read of ancient Rome - Nero & Caligula, etc., or the Roman pastime of importing thousands of exotic animals from all over the world just to slaughter them in front of frenzied crowds in the Colosseums. It's evidence of a deep, likely irreversible sickness.

I think history will record that in America at least, the bad guys won.

Moving forward, we need to begin to figure out how the good guys can break away & live in peace. In fact, I believe this is precisely why so many "recent" billionaires are into private space exploration. Mars is both literally and figuratively the new "new world", where the corruption and the massively entrenched ptb can be left behind for a chance to create something better. That is what it has come to - and those on the inside know it. Certainly there is not a chance in hell that voting, on any scale, can fix this. Zero.
Last edited by SquidInk on 06-22-2014 03:01 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kbot » 06-22-2014 12:58 PM

Couldn't agree with you more Squid.

By "allowing it to happen", what I meant was that (take your pick here), there were people clamoring for war, there were people caught-up in the frenzy (from whatever perspective - either directly from being deployed, or family member, or "newly employed" due to the arms buildup), to disjointed protests linked to the new government edit of "we're watching you..." - at any event, either by the build-up of pressure from one or the other extremes - the war continued and the antiwar crowd was cowed into silence because they didn't want to go to Gitmo.

I think that you're correct in the history won't view this generation kindly. As you noted, the unbridled depravity of this generation (post-WWII - and that includes a LOT of people) rivals Imperial Rome on a number of levels. The seedy underside of he culture - in all its versions, coupled with technology that allows us to move people, drugs and weapons would make the Roman envious.
"If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there......."

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Post by Riddick » 06-22-2014 01:56 PM

SquidInk wrote: I think history will record that in America at least, the bad guys won.
Like they're gonna finish last the way everything is rigged? Besides, it's a cultural thing: Nice guy? Loser! They're the WORST. To get anywhere you gotta assert yourself. But to come out on top you gotta assert your ass off -

And that's why America is Number One! Forget all the whiners. Go with the winners!... Hey, it's GOOD TO BE BAD.

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Post by SquidInk » 06-22-2014 03:14 PM

For if it profit, none dare call it Treason.

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