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VOTING ISSUES, Citizen Activism, Petitions

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racehorse
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Post by racehorse » 05-10-2005 12:19 PM

Originally from the proposals posted by fabzilla
20 - That attorneys be licensed, and their practices reviewed, by state boards composed of non- lawyers, and that no person shall be allowed to run for elected office who has practiced law during the preceding five years, nor shall such person, having held elected office, be permitted to practice law during his term of office or during the five years after leaving office.


:rolleyes:

Dangerous and clearly Unconstitutional!

There are some good proposals being made here but there are also some very bad ones like the outrageous suggestion quoted above. Attorneys already have to be licensed and have served this country in elective office with distinction since the founding of the Republic (by Attorneys among others).
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Post by fabzilla » 05-10-2005 12:26 PM

I understand your point Horsey, and this line is a bit extreme in nature.

That being said, it was written I think under the prospect of the missing 13th Amendment in mind and everything that these assumptive "titles" may have brought to the table in regards to actual affiliation and servitutde under an established but not front and center oligarchy of nobility.

That of its own is such an entertaining idea for the mind especially when the writings of the "Federalist" and "Anti Federalist" are considered into the mix. And some of the discsussive points that were bantied about by our founding fathers.

It is amazing when people render evaluations of political nature based solely upon what they have been taught to meet the "requirements" within the education system as compared to people who have really taken the time to investigate the time period and all of the documents and ideas as they were being expressed to establish the system from the beginning.

Anyhow, it takes a mind that is embroiled into the legalities and it's own language to decipher so much today that it may have its own undertones when being worded in such a manner. You know this as well as anyone else here does.

fab

Here's a link to the 13th "hypo" that will explain the verbage and intent a little clearer.

showthread.php?s=&threadid=14190





:cool:
Last edited by fabzilla on 05-10-2005 12:44 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Ah drrr drrr drrr

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Post by mudwoman » 05-10-2005 01:09 PM

racehorse wrote: :rolleyes:

Dangerous and clearly Unconstitutional!

There are some good proposals being made here but there are also some very bad ones like the outrageous suggestion quoted above. Attorneys already have to be licensed and have served this country in elective office with distinction since the founding of the Republic (by Attorneys among others).
Thank you Race. I am guilty as sin for not thoroughly reading the proposal in my sleep deprived, pain medicated state. I apologize to one and all.

I not only agree with Race in his comments in general, but (pull your socks up, folks) I think it wouldn't hurt to have more lawyers in Congress! If I had to choose between say, a bug exterminator writing or voting on law in Congress, and a lawyer, I would choose the lawyer. Would anyone consider hiring a computer engineer to do heart surgery? While non lawyers can, if they work very hard and have lawyers to advise them, understand the law, if you are asking people to write and or vote on laws, who better than someone who knows the law already?

So, back to rules #1 and 3. Don't post under the influence of medication, or while sleep deprived.

Carry on. :D

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Post by fabzilla » 05-10-2005 01:35 PM

I see the points and recognize the validity of the issues brought forth under this topic. At the same time nor would I particulary relish in the thought of a bug exterminator attempting to interpet legal issues as a representative of myself at that level.

On the other hand with this as an established point, it also redirects upon the problem that is of its own a Constitutional issue by design. A normal man or woman, Joe/Jane Q Sir bug slayer if you will, would have a hard time making heads or tails of any of the linguistics in the volumes of Public Law as written.

Did not the forefathers intend for an ordinary citizen coming from any walk of life being a citizen of these United States have the opportunity and the the right bestowed upon him to be able to function as a representative of his locale in the forum of centralized politics?

A very deep question that will only raise more questions and of course some serious evaluating points to render upon the state of the State.

In essence, have we the people let our visionary dreams of freedoms and liberties be clouded and lost amongst the shuffling of words and phrases and bylines written indirectly and hidden within volumes of coinciding laws and statutes that are always out of "convenience" left open ended to changing interpretations and eventual rewrites that cannot be noticed by the average American?


Is this not of its own an anti Constitutional course of events that has transpired over time and finally brought us as a collective against this immovable wall and unclimbable Hill we face?

The same fallacies that reared their heads upon the old Greek kingdoms and the old Baltic states seem to be reappearing as the due course of democracy as foreseen many times in some of the old great writers of freedom and liberty have expressed.

We need to heed these signs and warnings and acknowledge the flaws in the system being manipulated to bring this all out again before all of our hopes, dreams, liberties, freedoms disappear to join the annals of history and fiction.



fab

:confused:
Ah drrr drrr drrr

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sayntbrigid
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Post by sayntbrigid » 05-10-2005 02:30 PM

Jon-Marcus wrote: Sayntbrigid,
Hmm, ..... Maybe I shouldn't ask what my avitar makes ya think, huh? :D :D


HaHa John marcus,your icon makes me think twice before I post LOL

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Post by mudwoman » 05-10-2005 02:35 PM

fabzilla wrote: I see the points and recognize the validity of the issues brought forth under this topic. At the same time nor would I particulary relish in the thought of a bug exterminator attempting to interpet legal issues as a representative of myself at that level.
LOL Yet that is exactly what we have in Tom 'Da Bugman' Delay! :eek:

Yes, the Founders did intend the House of Representatives to be a body of We The Rabble. The Senate was to act as a firewall, between passion and reason.

I trust our system of government as envisioned by the founders. I would rather have the Constitutionally defined structure, rather than direct Democracy, for the same reasons the Founders wanted the senate.

Now the real question to me is, how the hell can we rid ourselves of the tyranny of the powerful Fascist elite? How can we restore the Constitutional government that you, me, Iris, Racey. etc. all love?

How do we get there, from here?

My dad, has seen this Fascist cancer before, up close and personal, and offered his life to kill it - once and for all. He now realizes that this terrible disease only goes into to hiding, lurking and waiting, until it finds a fertile environment in which to metastasize again.

My friends, we have such an environment, right here in our America, and Fascism is again growing. Will the head be cut from this cancerous snake by the blood of human sacrifice? Could be. It has happened before. Millions died in an effort to kill it last time around, yet ended up not killing it all. What will it take? How do we get there from here?

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sayntbrigid
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Post by sayntbrigid » 05-10-2005 02:38 PM

fabzilla wrote: It could be worse!

Look at these

http://www.fantasticforum.com/d29d/gallery/album101




:D


This should put a little more perspective on my delivery.


"It makes me so hot I could scream...



Alice Cooper, Alice Cooper...."


Frank Zappa and the Mothers

Live at the Fillmore '71


I've done my fair share of stand up as well, reality is some of the best comedy you just have to be able to see it to get the punch line.

Plus it helps you stay sane aong all this insanity. But then again, that is debatable in all honesty itself!


:D
I love you icon Fab, as long as you dont mind that I have to giggle when I read even your most serious posts. LOL

Thanks for the link to the pics. :) Dale O Sea was nice enough to put one of me up there too. Nice to be able to put a real face to the post :)

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sayntbrigid
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Post by sayntbrigid » 05-10-2005 02:45 PM

Cherry Kelly wrote: ...grr -- don't get me started on the "SIN TAXES" bit -- they will add more and more taxes all the time.... and yes it is going to destroy businesses - seen it happen in other places. Just like counties that keep hiking property taxes - soon people just get tired of paying them and sell and move out... well some move out and never DO sell their places because who wants to buy them with all the taxes....

- - -
FAB -- printing out to read the postings for better response....


Yup, I feel quite sure its all part of a plan for even more and bigger sin taxes in the future. This just seems to be where it all started, and we didnt step up to the plate and say no. They use all sorts of rhetoric to convince us its the right thing to do, when really, its just all about the money. Hopefully, we can learn from our mistakes,.........???

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Post by spiritme » 05-10-2005 08:28 PM

I was hoping that someone ...somewhere....on this forum would do this!
If I can not stand up for what we beleive is a just cause then bury me right now!
I would love to help with this...ahhh..but I am not the brainy one here...
I will stand with you and oh hell put me on the masters list if you must!
I would do it for my children and grandchildren...who don't have a snowball chance in hell if we do not all stand together.
I would do it because I remember days of just being worried about if the car was going to start in the morning...or
if I bought enought milk for my heathens the night before....
now...I can't sleep at night for the fear of what is to come...and then I land up in tears all night long. Yes...that is how bad it is and I am not the only one ...joined my billions of people who are going from day to day, feeling the same way I do.
Scared...tired of being used and lied to and.
Sorry for the rant!
But I do remember!
spiritme

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Iris
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Post by Iris » 05-10-2005 09:40 PM

{{{{{Spiritme}}}}} -- it pains me to see you so afraid and suffering so with worry, hon. Your post said it well for all of us, though.

I dunno who exactly controls the "master list" but it sure isn't us. I agree with you and Sandy that it's time to stand up and be counted, because it's bad for us to just kick silently off and leave all this to be our childrens' problem. Can't do that.

The longer a document is, and the more it says, the more people are going to have some objections to something or another in it. It's easier for people to take problems one at a time, for sure. There's a lot of good in the doc. that Fab posted here. I can see Racehorse's objections, but I can also see Fab's about that one part. Still, I don't think I could sign that part. If the problem is too much techno-language, then that should be the crux of it, not just being against lawyers. Race is right; that's not Constitutional. But I do understand the intent.

The Pat Act was so humongous, and was ammended and re-presented to our Congress at such a late date (or more precisely, they were highly pressured to act quickly) that none of them read it before signing it. That is a real danger!

Things should be written in simple terms, and not so much lumped together. Like, all those riders on bills, and sneaking the Real I.D. act in as an "emergency measure" (HA!) after all these many months of leaving our borders open -- in the Iraq appropriations bill? Gimmie a break. That shouldn't be allowed. That measure was never even debated in either the Senate or the House, and a lot of really bad legislation is getting passed through by The Sneaky Ones that way.

I dunno the answers either. It would be great if there were some no-party think tank, some centralized web site to help us out taking the most urgent issues on one at a time. But what do we do? Sign petitions? Been there, done that, no changes take place. I think it's going to require some legal action on a lot of these things to get real results. That also means donating money. As poor as I am, I'd still do that if I could see a happy ending to some of these very real concerns we all have.

One example that Fab brought up was We The People making a law suit against the feds to make them pay back our "borrowed" SS money. I could get behind that in a heartbeat!

I could get behind tossing all the lobbyists out of our gov't -- and I think most others could, too.

I could get behind going up against the Pat Act as it's unconstitutional.

I think there are a number of things that masses of people could/would support if they were done by a non-partisan group.

Pardon my rambling! :o
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

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Post by fabzilla » 05-11-2005 04:20 AM

You aren't rambling Iris, rather discussing ideas and developing a strategum to alter the course of the machine, as is everyone else partisipating in this thread.

There are flaws in this text as pointed out and there are some that have been oddly overlooked, but the piece as a whole would make a fine entry into the next committe for a re-drafting and fine tuning as all legislative acts receive. THAT is the glorious part of our system when it is used in the ways it was established to be implemented.

What crown do the new lines of these fascists serve?

There are many posibilities and theories but we should know by now it is most definitely not us. For this they are all traitors and heretics and deserving of the most vile consequences for their actions and crimes they have committed against society and others around the globe.

We have all been disconnected from one another. There is where we must start and branch out to achieve anything for the betterment of the whole.

Iris, I've carried on a few more conversations about the SS situation with a few in consulate. The most difficult part is getting over the hump of the misrepresentation over so many decades and get to the root of the systems design and what it has been turned into. They are listening and a few have taken this a little further than I could do myself at my level of access.

With the latest announcements pertaining the illegal alien situation, there is a very real ripening of opportunity to enter into the fray with a well organized point by point critical asessment of the misaligned course the Fed has embarked upon, it may just be a matter of time before more come forward with a centralized view point rather than a party line agenda to confront the whole instead of a fragment of the problem.

Spiritme, I feel your pain.


Don't buy into all the spin in your region regardding Kwame, it is what it is, politics as usual. The interesting part will actually be what the opposition to him will do to counter this round of spin.
Most of this is rooted around the coming Super Bowl.


Great discussion mateys.

fab




:cool:
Ah drrr drrr drrr

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Post by sayntbrigid » 05-11-2005 04:49 AM

spiritme wrote: I was hoping that someone ...somewhere....on this forum would do this!
If I can not stand up for what we beleive is a just cause then bury me right now!
I would love to help with this...ahhh..but I am not the brainy one here...
I will stand with you and oh hell put me on the masters list if you must!
I would do it for my children and grandchildren...who don't have a snowball chance in hell if we do not all stand together.
I would do it because I remember days of just being worried about if the car was going to start in the morning...or
if I bought enought milk for my heathens the night before....
now...I can't sleep at night for the fear of what is to come...and then I land up in tears all night long. Yes...that is how bad it is and I am not the only one ...joined my billions of people who are going from day to day, feeling the same way I do.
Scared...tired of being used and lied to and.
Sorry for the rant!
But I do remember!
spiritme


You're not alone spiritme, and you are doing something. Just by being here and working ideas, we are doing something. Energy follows thought, and first there has to be the thought, then the word, then the understanding of the word. Action occurs after much carefull analysing of all the possibities. So, you are doing a lot to help......just know that. :)

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Iris
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Post by Iris » 05-11-2005 10:22 PM

Thanks for your kind words, Fab. :)

I think most of us agree that the current situation doesn't serve We the People. So maybe a good starting point is looking for common ground. But, starting point for what?

There are times I wish we could just come up with a reasonable political party -- but then, what's reasonable to one is apparently unreasonable to another. I can say that with conviction, since I think they're all unreasonable. :D
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

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Post by Iris » 05-11-2005 10:36 PM

spiritme wrote: I would love to help with this...ahhh..but I am not the brainy one here...
First, I'm not convinced that's true. Second, we've got plenty of brains in government right now -- or so they tell us. What we desperately need there are qualities like decency, ethics and heart. Besides, nowhere does it say We the Smart People, or We the Rich People... it just says We the People. That means all of us, last time I looked. ;)
We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

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Food for thought in an ongoing discussion...

Post by fabzilla » 05-13-2005 03:53 AM

This will be an interesting perspective and quite “radical” if you follow this formula of a tested document.

Insert our current state of government into “he” and think about the endless list of travesties committed under these guidelines we have seen brought down upon us, the citizen, over the last century…

“He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states:

For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies:

For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments:

For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of the head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers…

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.”

Declaration of Independence 1776

We are almost back to square one as a nation…


Consider all of the alphabet agencies and their stated agendas, foreign policy 'insertions" Wacoesque style events throughout our recent history, foreign wars, the trade nightmare, the state of the judiciary, the problematic electoral system, the entire Patriot Act and National ID measures in place, the illegal immigration mess, all the corrupted social engineering projects, the controlled disinfomedia, the lobbying cabals the list goes on and on...


Yes, we seem to be at a real crossroads in our evolution as a country, race, and species.

Will it be an evolving of sorts?

Or will we de-evolve ourselves, as most history will point out of, as mankind's weakest tendency and thirst to be "godly" overcomes the silented majority?

We must seek for solutions outside of the plate they are offering to the altar of political ambitions.

fab
Last edited by fabzilla on 05-13-2005 03:59 AM, edited 1 time in total.
Ah drrr drrr drrr

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