From a Welfare Kid

Post by **Linnea** » 06-07-2007 03:44 PM

One thing is very clear here, Divinorumus. This thread was about the 'Welfare Kid'. Why have you turned it into a thread about yourself?

You really are ranting here, about how you cannot abide any laws and restrictions upon your self.

That seems like a very personal and emotional issue with you. Why are you attempting to generalize it across the spectrum of society and nations?

How is it that you have come to a place, emotionally, where you place yourself outside of society, humanity - and the planet itself?

That seems like a very lonely place.

SquidInk · Post by **SquidInk** » 06-07-2007 03:50 PM

Originally I think the disagreement was revolving around a great question: What is to blame for the existence of welfare programs- stupidity, laziness, genetics or capitalism?! A great topic for the Murky Bilge if there ever was one.

Capitalism is interesting. Over time, capitalism is no more sustainable than any other system. It works well in small, undeveloped, technologically primitive societies, but it's reliance on greed, self serving interests, and a truly bizarre level of competition makes it self destructive. Adam Smith himself told us in his master work, "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." (Book 1, Chapter 2 - Wealth of Nations).

We do not live in a primitive upstart society. In our society, the “haves”, with the aid of technology, can outpace the “have naughts” at an ever increasing rate. This being said, why is it such a grand leap to suggest that at some point we will be living in a different looking society?

Over time our system concentrates wealth (and thus political power) in the hands of a few. It's simply a matter of looking at the numbers. As an example, Divinorumus, if the world were populated by 6 billion perfect duplicates of you, not all of them could be capitalists. In that scenario, it would be a person with your excellent work ethic (a genuine compliment) frying Big Macs. Why? There is only one capitalist/owner (to keep it simple) for each 15 or 20 underlings. Each capitalist employs lots of labor. As of 2005, something like 16% of the population makes over $100K a year . If these are the capitalists, are 84% of us lazy, freeloaders who refuse to get out and “push the cart”? Obviously, the system only allows for a small percentage at the top. Business hierarchies are shaped like pyramids- wide bases & pin-point tips.

So who gets to the top? If we can agree that most of us are similar in aptitude and physical ability, then what is the determining factor in who becomes rich versus who becomes poor? I think it was said well earlier in this very thread,
“There is no excuse what-so-ever why anyone in this country can't achieve the kind of capitalistic life style they so desire ~ if you are WILLING to do what it takes to do so”.
In the end it is those people with a tendency to put their own interests before all else, and the motivation to pursue wealth at any cost who win the competition. I have worked for (and still do) many of these folks, and they all have the same traits.

There are still a few who will never “do what it takes” to be “successful”. Change does not come without sacrifice, and they will sacrifice new cars, home ownership (with crushing mortgages, compounded interest, and a thousand other “business” abominations) along with all the other trappings, and spend their time fighting a system that promotes greed and envy, and governments with built in corruption at every level, and a penchant (or a desperate need) for bombs, prisons, taxes, welfare addicts, endless self-serving legislation and bad monetary policy. Instead they’ll build guerilla wind turbines and give away the energy (check out H.R. 2337 , Congressman Nick Rahall), convert diesels to run on free oils only to give them to single mothers, and advocate for self sufficiency, and the golden rule.

Divinorumus · Post by **Divinorumus** » 06-07-2007 05:51 PM

One thing is very clear here, Divinorumus. This thread was about the 'Welfare Kid'. Why have you turned it into a thread about yourself?

Why do you keep saying things like that, particularly when someone has a view point different than yours? Why when I say something you disagree with, you say I am talking about something else when I AM NOT. Why?

And when I say by what authority are you god or boss over me, I am also implying everyone else and not just myself (i.e. by what higher or god given authority can the president of the USA send a child of yours to die in a war, or jack half your income so they can give it to another?)

Fact is, I AM on topic. This has EVERYTHING to do with this subject. It's about how some HUMANS are trying to tell and convince other HUMANS that, in addition to taking care of not only themselves and their own family, they must also take care of others that aren't taking care of themselves. And that is MORALLY WRONG you know! When charity is no longer an option but is mandatory and something you MUST pay for or go to jail, that is a blatant jack, an obvious shake down, slavery if you prefer!

In any case, welfare is a crime against humanity. It is bad for everyone, but look what it has done to devastate various minorities in this country. Welfare has become an acceptable way of life and means of support for so many ~ their career ~ no longer even an embarrassment for so many to be living off of others blood, sweet, and sometimes even tears. And so many have gotten so use to it many don't even know how to even look for work, or start their own business, or fill out a job application, or how to conduct themselves in a job interview. And worse yet, that welfare way of life is being taught and handed down to their children now too. A sad and pitiful perpetuation of an option that shouldn't even exist. Welfare keeps humans lazy, unmotivated, useless, worthless, and unemployed!!!

Still I await: by what higher or god given authority does anyone have, to FORCE one person give their earned income to another that hasn't earned it? . . . . I suppose even crooks think fondly of themselves, thus I suppose they will never answer that question because they KNOW they are wrong and DO NOT actually have a right or moral authority to shake down another human for their lunch money. Like misfit childish bullies shaking down others in the playground of life for their lunch money. Horrible, just horrible behavior!

Again , I'm not saying people shouldn't help those that REALLY need help, but they should not be allowed to shake us down for help and force us to pay just because they say so!

Hey, here's a great idea: why not eliminate welfare and just give them that need help a LOAN to tie them over, and then they can start to pay that back in a few months after they find a job. Heck, that's what most folks do instead of looking for a handout or robbing someone when they are in need of some cash. And, this way they can keep their dignity too, because it wouldn't be a shake down jack. ?

HB3 · Post by **HB3** » 06-07-2007 06:15 PM

Do you drive on American roads and highways?

Have you ever crossed a bridge?

Ever called the police department? Ever had to call 911?

Ever had a fire and had to call the fire department?

Attended and/or sent your children to public school?

You're a welfare recipient.

turtle101 · Post by **turtle101** » 06-07-2007 06:24 PM

I'v tried to read every word Div has written,...wow this is where I'm at.... What does this thread have to do with YOU this thread was about children and one childs story and YOU turn it into YOU........everyone is talking to YOU about YOU......I going back to talk about the children and as far as Div goes read between the lines.

Shirleypal · Post by **Shirleypal** » 06-07-2007 06:27 PM

Thank you turtle101 and btw HB3 using public services is not welfare, that is paid for by local, county and state taxes.

Shimmering Auro · Post by **Shimmering Auro** » 06-07-2007 06:46 PM

Shirleypal wrote: Thank you turtle101 and btw HB3 using public services is not welfare, that is paid for by local, county and state taxes.

Not exactly. Almost all (local) public services receive federal aid.

I'm not picking, just stating fact.

turtle101 · Post by **turtle101** » 06-07-2007 06:47 PM

QUOTE]Today, all we kids are grown. I am completing my Bachelors. My sister has almost completed her Masters. My three brothers work as a computer tech, sheetrock hauler and a med aide in a nursing home. I don't have children but my siblings have given me nine wonderful nephews and nieces.[/QUOTE]

That the best part. They made it out...so cool and a great story of real life. I grew up in a good home good parents nothing to gripe about. My heart just goes out to kids NOW days growing up hungry...ESP. in America.
Should never happen.
There should be so much food here no one person goes hungry. Welfare should not be so parents have to beg for it or prove they are worthy to recieve it......

If children are involved it should be given freely if that child is hungry feed him or her.
Shame on anyone saying different.
No Child in America should go un-educated.
Shame on anyone saying different.
No child in America should die becuase the lack of a Doctors care.
Shame on anyone saying different.

Just Turtle Thoughts

Post by **Linnea** » 06-07-2007 06:52 PM

Okay, Div - I get it now. This is your entire point: You hate 'welfare'. At least any welfare that goes to those of low income. What's your backstory on this? I remember when you begrudged a person of low income with finding a winning lottery ticket. Sheesh!

and

What are your thoughts on corporate welfare?

turtle101 · Post by **turtle101** » 06-07-2007 06:54 PM

You betcha.....

should of said "(ShirleyPal)"
sorry

Post by **Linnea** » 06-07-2007 07:03 PM

Ah, well - anyway. I guess this topic has been thrashed about enough. It has been startling how much controversy it has generated.

HB3 · Post by **HB3** » 06-07-2007 07:29 PM

Shirleypal wrote: Thank you turtle101 and btw HB3 using public services is not welfare, that is paid for by local, county and state taxes.

The salient point is that it's funded by taxation, not that it's federal or local.

vigo · Post by **vigo** » 06-07-2007 07:49 PM

I think Companies that use our collective resources or create unwanted byproducts should pay for welfare services for those that they effect. In other words the individuals and corporations that rape and pollute our (the world's) resources should be held responsible.

They created an environment that created mutated genes and forced many individuals into unwanted circumstances.

They need to pay!

Sadly, We need to pay also.

We are silent conspirators indirectly involved. How are we indirectly involved you ask? We buy their blood soaked products and look the other way when we shop at stores for products that are a convenience to us regardless of how it gets made or brought to us.

I am guilty of this as well my friends. I work in an environment that pollutes and encourages undocumented workers to drive the labor rates down. We as union members are becoming more interested in our retirement and less interested in the welfare of other workers in the world.

I am a product of welfare and I am creating welfare children as well.

Let’s vote in somebody that will address the global issues that are suddenly being brought to our front door.

Divinorumus · Post by **Divinorumus** » 06-07-2007 09:22 PM

HB3 wrote: Do you drive on American roads and highways?
Have you ever crossed a bridge?
Ever called the police department? Ever had to call 911?
Ever had a fire and had to call the fire department?
Attended and/or sent your children to public school?
You're a welfare recipient.

Yup, used all those things before. And, I had to pay a hell of a lot more in taxes than others I know that have used those thing more than I ever will. Why? Because I'm a sucker shake down that can be forced to pay more merely because I can? How the bleep is that fair?

Hey, couldn't you have used that money of yours you worked for, that they take away from you every week and redistributed to others, to take care of your own kids? Welfare tax doesn't just take from us, but it robs our own children too. If you weren't rob each week to feed someone elses responsibilities you could have sent your own kids to college or a better college, and maybe even have bought them new cars for graduation, thus stimulating the economy and creating jobs for those that want or need them and more profits for the entrepreneurs. Now, isn't that much better and fair?

Do you even know how much welfare tax you have been made to pay in your life? Go figure it out and you'll see what I'm talking about and how it has everything to do with the children ~ our children ~ you too ~ many of us ~ all being robbed and pulled down by a situation that YOU are creating by supporting all of this.

This is your entire point: You hate 'welfare'.

Yes, the theft and redistribution of a persons blood, sweat, and tears, is bleepin immoral and wrong.

What's your backstory on this?

We are all being robbed ~ does anyone need more of a backstory than that? And, I have a heap of my own medical bills to pay, which I could easily do if I hadn't been robbed so much like so many others too ~ robbed by those that think they deserve to reap my rewards. perpetual blood suckers ..

What are your thoughts on corporate welfare?

All welfare taxes should be voluntary ~ like insurance. Would you have a problem with that? Would you object if paying a welfare tax was optional? That would make you happy because you can continue to pay and those that think free sweet sweet candy is wrong can stop contributing to that evil. ???

HB3 · Post by **HB3** » 06-07-2007 09:42 PM

Divinorumus wrote: Yup, used all those things before. And, I had to pay a hell of a lot more in taxes than others I know that have used those thing more than I ever will. Why? Because I'm a sucker shake down that can be forced to pay more merely because I can? How the bleep is that fair?

You keep moving the target, man. So now your beef is not with taxation per se, but equitable taxation. If it ISN'T, then you've just talked your way around my argument using a cheap rhetorical trick -- but you'd never do that, wouldja???