What Your Pet is Thinking

Bellisima · Post by **Bellisima** » 10-27-2006 10:04 PM

What Your Pet is Thinking
By SHARON BEGLEY, The Wall Street Journal

From the day they brought her home, the D'Avellas' black-and-white mutt loathed ringing phones. At the first trill, Jay Dee would bolt from the room and howl until someone picked up. But within a few weeks, the D'Avellas began missing calls: When the phone rang, their friends later told them, someone would pick up and then the line would go dead.

One evening, Aida D'Avella solved the mystery. Sitting in the family room of her Newark, N.J., home, Ms. D'Avella got up as the phone rang, but the dog beat her to it. Jay Dee ran straight to the ringing phone, lifted the receiver off the hook in her jaws, replaced it and returned contentedly to her spot on the rug.

Just about every pet lover has a story about the astonishing intelligence of his cat, dog, bird, ferret or chinchilla. Ethologists, the scientists who study animal behavior, have amassed thousands of studies showing that animals can count, understand cause and effect, form abstractions, solve problems, use tools and even deceive. But lately scientists have gone a step further: Researchers around the world are providing tantalizing evidence that animals not only learn and remember but that they may also have consciousness -- in other words, they may be capable of thinking about their thoughts and knowing that they know.

In the past few years, top journals have been publishing reports on self-awareness in dolphins and wild chimps whose different nut-cracking "technologies" constitute unique cultures. Others argue that rats have a sense of fun, mice show empathy for cage-mates and scrub jays are capable of "mental time travel" that enables them to remember where they stashed worms and seeds.

While researchers have yet to attain the field's holy grail -- proving that animals are self-aware -- the findings already have broad implications. For the 69 million U.S. households that own a pet, such knowledge might lead owners to question their animal companions' awareness of what they're fed, how they're housed and how often the kitty litter is changed. All of that would be a boon for the pet industry, which generates $38 billion in annual revenue, according to the American Pet Products Manufacturers Association, selling everything from food and grooming services to pet exercise gear, hotels and psychics.

Drug companies are already addressing animals' feelings. Some 15 million dogs have taken Pfizer Inc.'s animal pain-reliever Remadyl. The company's Anipryl targets "cognitive dysfunction syndrome" in dogs. (In a dog, symptoms include failing to recognize people or respond to its name and getting lost in the house.) Experts expect a steady stream of drugs aimed at pets' minds instead of bodies.

The research is also coloring thinking about everything from science labs to farms and food-production facilities. Having demolished concrete cages in favor of naturalistic enclosures, many zoos are also offering animals "environmental enrichment" designed to exercise their minds, and housing them in social groups where they can express their emotions. The nonprofit Great Ape Project, Seattle, is campaigning on behalf of the primates for "life, liberty and protection against torture." And this year a member of the Spanish parliament introduced a resolution to protect great apes from "maltreatment, slavery, torture, death and extinction." Federal animal-welfare acts have long required researchers who use primates to take into account their "psychological well-being," but researchers say more institutions that use lab dogs, rabbits and other small animals are voluntarily adopting the rules. "Without question, these discoveries [on animal awareness] are having an effect," says Wayne Pacelle, president and chief executive officer of the Humane Society of the U.S.

And if chimps and monkeys have hints of consciousness, do less-brainy animals have it, too? Does that mean people shouldn't hunt them, imprison them or eat them? Opponents of experimenting on animals say creatures as low on the evolutionary ladder as rats and mice are capable of suffering, even if they can't engage in self-reflection.

Some researchers say humans may be a bit too eager to attribute high-level mental functioning to animals, and end up inferring mental states that don't exist. Bonnie Beaver, professor of veterinary medicine at Texas A&M University and former president of the American Veterinary Medicine Association, says that when dogs act distressed in a boarding kennel, they're showing unfamiliarity with the surroundings, not resentment that their owner is vacationing in Bali. And if a dog looks guilty over leaving a mess on the rug, it is being submissive, she says, not showing a more complex emotion. "Most times," she says, "owners are reading things that are not there."

Not too long ago, scientists scoffed at the idea that animals could have consciousness. Philosophers haggle endlessly about the meaning of the word, of course. But they generally agree that it isn't enough to solve problems, learn or remember -- a semiconductor can do that -- but to be aware of the contents of one's own mind. When it comes to animals, the question "was thought of as impossible to answer with objective observations," says Clive Wynne, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Florida, Gainesville. Now he sees an increase in such studies aimed at discovering what's going on inside animals' heads.

At the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta, Robert Hampton, who has made some of the field's most significant findings, studies whether rhesus monkeys know if they know something. In one series of experiments, he gave the monkeys memory tests over a period of weeks. After seeing four images on a monitor, the monkeys would be asked to choose which one they had seen before. But before taking the test, the monkeys had a choice of pressing one of two icons whose meaning they already knew. One meant, "Yup, I'm ready to take the test." The other meant, "No test for me, thanks." They had an incentive to take it only if they remembered the target image: Failing the test brought them no reward, passing it got them a handful of peanuts, and declining to take the test got them monkey-chow pellets, which they don't like as much as peanuts but are better than nothing.

When the monkeys chose to take the test, they passed more than 80% of the time, apparently declining to take the test when their memory was poor. When they weren't given a choice and Prof. Hampton gave them the test anyway, they chose the correct image much less often. That suggests they knew the contents of their memory and assessed it before deciding whether to take the test -- a sign of self-reflective consciousness. "The monkeys know whether they remember something," says Prof. Hampton, who reported his latest monkey findings in May in the journal Behavioural Processes.

A key ingredient of consciousness is having a sense of self, a feeling that there's a "you" inside your brain. One sign of that is being able to imagine yourself in a different time and place. Some scientists have said that's why chimps in a forest pick up a stone so that they can crack a nut that they left far away, and why New Caledonian crows make hook-shaped devices to fish for bugs.

But maybe, skeptics say, chimps and crows learned that a rock, or hook, equals lunch and just act reflexively. To try to rule this out, scientists at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, taught orangutans and bonobos, considered the great apes closest to humans, how to use tools to snare grapes that were otherwise out of reach. Then they gave the animals a chance to take the right tools into a "waiting room," where they were kept for times ranging from five minutes to overnight, before being led back to the room with the grapes. The clever move, of course, was to grab a tool before going to the waiting room.

All 10 animals managed this at least sometimes, the researchers reported in May in the journal Science. Because the animals had to plan so far ahead, the scientists argue, the experiment showed an ability to anticipate needs. "It's hard to argue that these animals do not have consciousness," says primatologist Frans de Waal at Yerkes.

Dissenters argue that any behavior that meets a basic need such as hunger shouldn't be ascribed to anything as lofty as consciousness. More and more, however, scientists are observing what they call altruistic behavior that has no evident purpose. Prof. de Waal once watched as a bonobo picked up a starling. The bonobo carried it outside its enclosure and set the bird on its feet. When it didn't fly away, the ape took it to higher ground, carefully unfolded its wings and tossed it into the air. Still having no luck, she stood guard over it and protected it from a young bonobo that was nearby.

Since such behavior doesn't help the bonobo to survive, it's unlikely to be genetically programmed, says Marc Bekoff, emeritus professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder. If a person acted this way, "we would say this reflects planning, thought and caring," he adds. "When you see behaviors that are too flexible and variable to be preprogrammed, you have to consider whether they are the result of true consciousness."

In June, scientists reported new insights about compassion in African elephants. These animals often seem curious about the bodies of dead elephants, but no one knew whether they felt compassion for the dying or dead. A matriarch in the Samburu Reserve in northern Kenya, which researchers had named Eleanor, collapsed in October 2003. Grace, matriarch of a different family, walked over and used her tusks to lift Eleanor onto her feet, according to Iain Douglas-Hamilton of Save the Animals, Nairobi, and colleagues at the University of Oxford and the University of California, Berkeley, reporting in the journal Applied Animal Behaviour Science.

But Eleanor was too shaky to stand. Grace tried again, this time pushing Eleanor to walk, but Eleanor again fell. Grace appeared "very stressed," called loudly and often, and kept nudging and pushing Eleanor. Although she failed, Grace stayed with the dying elephant as night fell. Eleanor died the next day.

Grace's interest in an unrelated animal can't be explained by her genetic disposition to help a close relative, a behavior that's been well established. The scientists instead argue that the elephant was showing compassion. Mr. Douglas-Hamilton has also seen elephants guard and help unrelated elephants who have been hit by tranquilizer darts to let researchers tag the animals. Since standing by an animal that has been shot puts the other animals in harm's way, it's hard to argue self-interest.

Critics say that consciousness is in the eye of besotted observers, and animals are no more than stimulus-response machines. Florida's Prof. Wynne, for one, is skeptical that chimps know what they know. "To know one's own mental states does not necessarily imply conscious awareness," he says. "You can be unconsciously aware of what you know." Game-show contestants, for instance, sometimes press a buzzer to answer before they consciously know the answer -- knowing unconsciously that they know.

Anyone whose dog has ever run to the front door, leash in its mouth, assumes that animals form intentions. But that might also reflect dumb learning: the dog figured out that leash equals walk. A computer could be rigged to learn the same cause-and-effect relationship. Some scientists also see intentionality when beavers plug holes in their dam, bowerbirds build baroque nests, ants cultivate fungus farms and plovers feign injury to lure predators away from their hatchlings. But many researchers give genes, not conscious intentions, the credit for these clever behaviors.

As for emotions, the conventional view has long been that while animals might seem to be sad, happy, curious or angry, these weren't true emotions: The creature didn't know that it felt any of these things. Daniel Povinelli of the University of Louisiana, who has done pioneering studies of whether chimps understand that people and other chimps have mental states, wonders whether chimps are aware of their emotions: "I don't think there is persuasive evidence of that."

The trouble is that all sorts of animals -- from those in the African bush to those in your living room -- keep acting as if they truly do have emotions remarkably like humans'. Last month, Ya Ya, a panda in a Chinese zoo, accidentally crushed her newborn to death. She seemed inconsolable -- wailing and frantically searching for the tiny body. The keeper said that when he called her name, she just looked up at him with tear-filled eyes before lowering her head again. The conventional view is that these were instinctive, reflexive reactions, and that Ya Ya didn't know she was sad. As the evidence for animal consciousness piles up, that view becomes harder to support.

October 28, 2006

Shimmering Auro · Post by **Shimmering Auro** » 10-28-2006 01:55 AM

Fascinating article. Thanks for sharing it, Bell.

As for the medication Remadyl, it works. Toward the end of his life, Raider, my poor old 16 year old pittbull, took the medication several times a day. It definitely improved his quality of life.

We were so very thankful for that medication, as was the dog.

Old Raider was stoned off his rocker after every dose, but at least I knew he was pain free and enjoying his last ride on earth. That old boy knew where his medication was stored and would go sit by the cabinet when the medication wore off. He was aware that the medication stopped the pain.

Dixie Butcher · Post by **Dixie Butcher** » 10-28-2006 01:56 PM

Cool topic, thanks for the article, Bell.

A radio talk show host tells the following story now & then - I don't think he's making it up - he's not smart enough to come up with something like this, and he tells it very sincerely. He tells it in a "I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes" sort of way.

Around Halloween a few years back, this guy & his family left the house for awhile. When they returned home they found a mangled sack of Halloween candy bars in the middle of the living room floor, surrounded by chewed up wrappers, chocolate mess, etc. - and it was surrounded by stuffed animals that this guy's son normally kept on his bed.

The dog, named Lil Stoopie (I think. And I believe it was a Beagle or Beagle mix) was shut into the child's bedroom. Recreating what must have happened, they surmised that Lil Stoopie ate the forbidden candy, brought all the stuffed critters out to "frame them", then went into the son's room and pushed the door shut, as if to indicate "How could I possibly have eated that candy? I was locked in here the entire time!!"

Barbie · Post by **Barbie** » 10-28-2006 02:18 PM

My personal opinion of our "learned professors and animal caregivers" who either do NOT, or find it only remotely PLAUSIBLE, than any form of life other than humans can be self-aware, reason, feel pain, plot, and know the difference between sadness and joy should not be allowed to go near any other living creature. Those people are an embarrassment to society in general, and a threat to most of the rest of us who live and breathe.

Anyone who has lived with and observed on a daily basis any creatures over a long period of time, KNOWS how devious, how amusing (on purpose!) and how normal these traits are.

I once had a green spider with red hairs on it's legs. I don't recall it's species, anymore, but I learned it wasn't venomous, so I didn't fear it. I named it "Reggie." When I came in from work in the late afternoon, I'd call out, "Reggie, I'm home..." Within three minutes the spider would come out from wherever it was sleeping, and I'd let it crawl onto my hand, and then I'd carry it to the balcony so it could feed on the insects around my plants. It usually came back in by itself, but if the weather turned inclimate, I'd go get Reggie and bring it back inside for the night. Alas, when my brother moved in, Reggie didn't like him, so Reggie moved out.

Dixie Butcher · Post by **Dixie Butcher** » 11-02-2006 11:23 PM

Wow. That is really wild- I've never heard of spiders interacting with humans in such a way. Has anyone ever had a tarantula? I wonder if they ever interact with people like that. Hmmmm.

Black Irish · Post by **Black Irish** » 11-02-2006 11:46 PM

Dixie Butcher wrote: Around Halloween a few years back, this guy & his family left the house for awhile. When they returned home they found a mangled sack of Halloween candy bars in the middle of the living room floor, surrounded by chewed up wrappers, chocolate mess, etc. - and it was surrounded by stuffed animals that this guy's son normally kept on his bed.

Ooooh, eeeeep! That is a scary thing for a dog to do!

Dogs are SEVERELY allergic to chocolate! They get this thing called Chocolatoxicosis when they eat it & that is dangerous & can kill them.

Once I had a dog that ate a WHOLE chocolate cake! He had to go to the vet & get medication to help him b/c he got very sick. He was hyperventilating & ripping his fur out & the whole 9 yards. Our vet told us about this condition when we took him in b/c we had no idea that dogs were THAT allergic to chocolate.

I'm glad the dog in the story seemed like it was OK.

This reminded me of something else though, too.

Once I had a friend over after she was done with work & she left her backpack @ my house while we went off to whatever it was that we were doing that afternoon....Well, that backpack had a loaf of raisin bread in it & while we were out, my 'lil cat Mai Tai decided that she wanted to investigate this....

Near as we could figure it by the mess that got left by the time we got home, this is what happened...

That cat unzipped the backpack (how she did that I still don't know)....pulled the loaf of raisin bread out....opened it....& then proceeded to take a bite from one of the slices....She must have decided that she didn't like the taste of it as much as the smell....but I think that she also must have decided that the NEXT slice MUST be different & better b/c she pushed aside the first slice she was nibbling on & pulled the next one out....& again decided she didn't like it.....This must have happened over & over again b/c by the time we got back the whole loaf was strewn across the floor & each slice had a bite taken out of it.

It was so funny that we just couldn't get mad @ her....I mean a cat that liked RAISIN BREAD?!?!? Who knew.....

Then again....she was also partial to Smartfoods popcorn, white cheddar Cheeze-itz & Dorritos.....

:::::Eyeroll....

Black Irish · Post by **Black Irish** » 11-02-2006 11:55 PM

Dixie Butcher wrote: Wow. That is really wild- I've never heard of spiders interacting with humans in such a way. Has anyone ever had a tarantula? I wonder if they ever interact with people like that. Hmmmm.

Tarantulas...

I like the ones with the orange knees the best!

I had a friend that had a scorpion once....It managed to get out of it's enclosure after only a week & was never seen or heard from again.

Divinorumus · Post by **Divinorumus** » 11-03-2006 06:40 AM

This is Edgar, the spider my kitty saved from the brink of death (another story). I took this photo about 24 hours ago, and he/she is doing well. And yes, spiders are apparently very interactive. This one comes up to my hand and strokes one of my fingers very gently every time I put my hand in the cage. And he/she will crawl right into my hand and stroke my wrist once in a while too. I'm not sure if that is a sign of affection, or like some kind of early warning thang I should be aware of (so far I've not been stabbed, ha). He/she is use to kitty now, and they actually interact with each other too - with glass or heavy plastic separating the two of course. This spider will actually play with stuff I toss in his cage. He's quite active now.

Shimmering Auro · Post by **Shimmering Auro** » 11-03-2006 09:59 AM

Black Irish wrote: Ooooh, eeeeep! That is a scary thing for a dog to do!

It was so funny that we just couldn't get mad @ her....I mean a cat that liked RAISIN BREAD?!?!? Who knew.....

Then again....she was also partial to Smartfoods popcorn, white cheddar Cheeze-itz & Dorritos.....

:::::Eyeroll....

ROFL... cats have funky weird things they love to eat. My old girl kitty loved beans. I could not have beans without giving her some. She didn't eat them out of her dish, she speared each bean, one by one with her claw and nibbled at each bean until it was gone. Ha! Fruitcake cats.

And do not even think of eating Smartfood unless you're sharing with my new boy cat, Louie. He's an addict of the worst kind. Many years ago, when he was a kitten, I found him sleeping inside a Smartfood bag. Yet another fruitloop kitty.

Neamhain · Post by **Neamhain** » 11-03-2006 10:37 AM

Ha! Cute stories...

My ex husband had a huge Alaskan Malamute (Nimo) that liked bread. They used to have to hide the loaves from him. One day, they put a loaf up on top of the frig. Welp, Nimo the puppuh trotted into the kitchen when no one was looking and jumped up and grabbed the loaf from on top of the frig. He ate the whole loaf-- twisty tie, plastic and all.

:::::belch

My Siberian Husky used to eat bagels with cream cheese. He'd also steal a bagel and let it sit around til it got all hard and stale and crunchy and then eat it. :p

Divinorumus · Post by **Divinorumus** » 11-03-2006 01:46 PM

I've always known for quite a while now that all these creatures are more than just mindless meat. In fact, I they are evolving - and learning - from you .. us .. themselves. I've noticed recently some rather dramatic changes in many animals I've known for a while now - in fact almost all of them have become highly interactive and just as delightful to play with as a young little human child can be. I'll post a few of their photos in the All Creatures Great And Small thread (the non-human ones that is) and mention how I think some have changed or are changing. I really do think they are starting to observe us and learn from us ... and each other too (I see cats now acting like dogs, and birds that act more like cats, and monkeys use tools and develop complex games they play for fun and social reasons, etc.).

Dixie Butcher · Post by **Dixie Butcher** » 11-03-2006 04:13 PM

Black Irish wrote: Ooooh, eeeeep! That is a scary thing for a dog to do!

Dogs are SEVERELY allergic to chocolate! They get this thing called Chocolatoxicosis when they eat it & that is dangerous & can kill them.

It was so funny that we just couldn't get mad @ her....I mean a cat that liked RAISIN BREAD?!?!? Who knew.....

HOLY SLAMOLIE! What a lot of great posts! Y'all are provoking me so - wish we were all sittin' around together in person to swap stories.

Black Irish, I've known about the dogs/chocolate issue for years, and I panicked when I first heard that story, although I figured the guy wouldn't have been telling it had the dog died- but the dog suffered not from all that chocolate. Oddly enough, the same pooch ate one Starburst fruit chew one time, and had to go to the vet- head swollen up like a giant grapefruit - anaphylactic shock & all - YIKES!! but he survived.

We've always kept chocolate high & away from our pets, but Chubby the bulldog was a mastermind at getting at things he should not. He also ate nearly a bag of fun sized Snickers years ago- with no adverse effects, thank God!! Other than he had parts Snickers wrappers in his poop for awhile. He ate so-much- stuff that he shouldn't have, Lord I have stories. Sometimes things would get "stuck" when he was trying to poop, and the things I had to pull out of that dog's ass are nearly unbelievable.

Which brings me to Neamhain's Nimo (I LOVE malamutes, huskies, etc. - all them fuzzy, wolfie, snow dogs - LOVE EM LOVE EM LOVE EM!!!) story with the bread. Neamhain, did you have to help Nimo when it came time to eliminate that bread wrapper?

Plus, ever since I was a kid I was told never give dogs or cats bread, as it would cause intestinal blockages. I'm sure you'd have mentioned if it gave him any troubles, so I'm very glad Nimo had his fun w/out any bad repurcussions!!

As for Mai Tai's raisin bread adventure, too cute & funny!!

I'm not the least surprised about her figuring out the zipper - cats are so smart! I'll bet that was an easy problem to solve for her!

Cats are so wacky about what they do and don't like- there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. I hope Barbie, who has the ideal situation for cat observations, weighs in with her kitties's food preferences. I've mentioned elsewhere that our cat Nails goes INSANE for Krispy Kreme donuts. Although he likes a few odd things, Krispy Kremes are the only thing he goes apesh*t for. And if you've ever had a warm, fresh Krispy Kreme, you'd understand why. Oh my God. Melt in your mouth Heaven.

I suspect it's the combination of the yeast smell along with the sugar, as Nails does like to lick sugary things. We got a pizza one night, though, and Nails kept trying to steal bites of the hot, fresh, yeasty crust.

Cats are so interesting because they're usually so finicky. Dogs usually eat damn near anything you throw at them, but cats, not so much..

Dixie Butcher · Post by **Dixie Butcher** » 11-03-2006 04:47 PM

Shimmering Auro wrote: ROFL... cats have funky weird things they love to eat. My old girl kitty loved beans. I could not have beans without giving her some. She didn't eat them out of her dish, she speared each bean, one by one with her claw and nibbled at each bean until it was gone. Ha! Fruitcake cats.

And do not even think of eating Smartfood unless you're sharing with my new boy cat, Louie. He's an addict of the worst kind. Many years ago, when he was a kitten, I found him sleeping inside a Smartfood bag. Yet another fruitloop kitty.

Oh my gosh! I'm in such a lovey-dovey mood today LOL! (I wonder if this is what it feels like to take Ecstasy!

!!) All of your posts have put me in such a good mood, I just love all the Pirates on the FF, and I'm so glad this Animals section is here so I can get to know you & your critters. I don't visit a lot of decks that some of you frequent, so don't get a chance to interact with you folks here as much as I would like.

The thought of Louie sleeping in a Smart Food bag is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too cute, Auro! Wish you had a photo. Why can't our animals do that stuff when we have cameras handy?

What were/are all the other strange things your kitties like(d) to eat? I love the idea of spearing each bean with her claw. Did she favor any particular kind of bean? My old cat Aleister liked all sorts of people food -watching him eat Ramen noodles was a hoot!! I'd hold the long noodle up and he'd suck it down until almost the end, then I'd let go and he'd suck it all in really fast -kinda like Lady & the Tramp. He also LOVED popsicles. If I held up a split "twin" of a popsicle - any flavor- he would eat the entire thing. Bite off bits of it, suck & chew, and down it went. Loved 'em.

He also loved chili - beans and all. And boy would he poot! Sometimes he'd be like how old people (like me) get, where when they'd walk around, every step they take a poot would come out!

Chubby the bulldog loved everything, of course. Except celery & peas. I'd chop up celery fairly small to put in beef or chicken soup/stew - not big chunks at all. If I gave him a dish, he'd wolf down huge mouthfuls (and if you've ever seen the inside of a bulldog's mouth -!!!- a gaping maw of death!), yet somehow he would push the celery & peas to the side, and after swallowing the rest, he'd stand there and spit out each pea or bit of celery just the same as you would "poothth" out a watermelon seed. It was awful cute.

When he would sing to us, singing "wooowooowooo", he somehow took those huge lips of his and pursed them so that there was just a tiny little "o" hole about the size of a dime for his notes to come out of. It looked kind of like the mouths of the kids on the Charlie Brown cartoons when they sing. Too much.

Barbie · Post by **Barbie** » 11-03-2006 05:35 PM

Dixie Butcher wrote: The thought of Louie sleeping in a Smart Food bag is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too cute, Auro! Wish you had a photo. Why can't our animals do that stuff when we have cameras handy?

Calvin's too big to get inside one now, but this used to be his favorite napping place. I sent a copy of this to Jonny Cat, but never heard anything from them. I thought they'd at least write back and say "How Cute!" or "Thank-you..."

Too bad his eyes changed color--he was so spectacular when he was a baby with those huge, blue eyes.

Dixie Butcher · Post by **Dixie Butcher** » 11-03-2006 05:38 PM

Divinorumus wrote: And yes, spiders are apparently very interactive. This one comes up to my hand and strokes one of my fingers very gently every time I put my hand in the cage. And he/she will crawl right into my hand and stroke my wrist once in a while too. I'm not sure if that is a sign of affection, or like some kind of early warning thang I should be aware of (so far I've not been stabbed, ha). He/she is use to kitty now, and they actually interact with each other too - with glass or heavy plastic separating the two of course. This spider will actually play with stuff I toss in his cage. He's quite active now.

Hello Edgar. (that's a good name for him.) Div, can you please list all of your current pets? It seems like you have a bunch, but I've lost track. I look forward to the spider-rescue story.

Been stabbbed? Splain please. I don't know anything about tarantulas. How does he "play" with stuff? What does he play with? Man, that is so cool that spiders interact w/others-who knew? And that maybe they "pet" you? I'll have to google spider behavior one day, this is interesting. We never kill spiders here & have tons. We also never dust & have TONS of cobwebs, so our house looks like a cross between the Beverly Hillbiliies before they struck oil & the Addams Family's house. Some guy came here once to interview Cecil, and he was fascinated with the cobwebs. He asked "how did you do that?" He thought you could buy canned cobwebs like Silly String or something & couldn't believe we'd leave cobwebs up for years.

Divinorumus wrote: In fact, I they are evolving - and learning - from you .. us .. themselves. I've noticed recently some rather dramatic changes in many animals I've known for a while now - in fact almost all of them have become highly interactive and just as delightful to play with as a young little human child can be. I'll post a few of their photos in the All Creatures Great And Small thread (the non-human ones that is) and mention how I think some have changed or are changing. I really do think they are starting to observe us and learn from us ... and each other too (I see cats now acting like dogs, and birds that act more like cats, and monkeys use tools and develop complex games they play for fun and social reasons, etc.).

You surprise me a little here, Div - this is a slightly different view from your usual "the animals are in charge & have always been in charge of us" (or at least that's how I contrued it) view. Although the above observations don't negate the other point of view, does it?

Do you think the animals are still The Boss, but are lowering themselves to human standards/level for some reason? Haven't monkeys (and some other animals-crows, for instance) always used tools, played games, etc.? Isn't it just that us egocentric humans never took the time to notice until recently?

Our two dogs have outdoor games they play together, and there are definitely rules, but we don't have them all figured out yet. Nails the cat has tried to emulate us & the dogs ever since he came here- but I'm told that breed of cat is naturally dog-like. He has to do EVERYTHING the dogs do. If they eat, he has to eat with them.(even though he may be full from eating his food, which is elsewhere) If they're laying on the floor, he will lay next to them & try to pose himself EXACTLY like they are. When visitors come he has to run to the door with them and bother them-and continue to bother them after they sit. He tries to play their dog games with them. He lets Sissy clean his ears & head the way she does with Buford.

And one more-sorry if I mentioned this before-like all dogs, Sissy loves to have her rump scratched, and will stand next to someone sitting and push her rear end at them forcefully until they scratch it. She "taught" Nails from Kittenhood to do the same. When he's laying in a chair, she shows him her butt and he reaches out & scratches. If he doesn't scratch it enough, she'll turn & bark playfully in his face, sometimes lightly smacking him with her paw to incite him, then put her rear end back for more scratching!