As the conservative movement is coalescing around Sarah Palin for 2012, do you think it is possible a movement of disaffected progressives may form around Gov Dean for 2012?
Remembering the grass roots, populist fervor of Dean's candidacy in 2004 "you have the power' - and how his candidacy was derailed in Iowa by the DLC - if Obama begins to tank in the polls going in to 2012 - what do you think?
Gov Dean has been more or less marginalized by the Obama administration, but has Gov Dean been keeping himself out of the fray with an eye to the future? Not that he is undermining the Obama administration, but just keeping an 'option' open?
There is a discussion about Dean coming out now with a statement regarding the public option, or lack of one, in the current health care reform plan. Here is a link to the Progressive Book Club, and an event that Gov Dean held at the end of September in NYC entitled 'Howard Dean's Progressive Prognosis':
http://www.progressivebookclub.com/blog ... /28/37972/
Maybe this is Dean's line in the sand moment?
Gov Dean in 2012?
Moderator: Super Moderators
Re: Gov Dean in 2012?
Linnea wrote: Remembering the grass roots, populist fervor of Dean's candidacy in 2004 "you have the power' - and how his candidacy was derailed in Iowa by the DLC....
As long as I live, I'll never forget when one -- exactly one -- news source (why do I have it in my head that it was Peter Jennings, ABC Nightly News) played the unedited version of "the scream". The audience was very loud and it was obvious Dean could barely hear himself, and his voice got increasingly weird, kind of the way it is when you try to sing with ear phones on. By the time he went "wooo!" at the end, you could barely hear it over the cheers. And I remember thinking to myself: that's it then. Once people hear this they'll realize it was no big deal, and Dean will be back on top. But I never heard this unedited version again, and forever locked in history was the maniacal screech in Iowa. Yeah, he was sabotaged.
But for me, I can't take him any more seriously as a potential President than I could Sarah Palin. Both wildly popular people with interesting ideas that play to their base. But President? Honestly, we're going to have enough problems in 2012
. I hope it doesn't come to this, for either party.Did you ever stop to think, and then forget to start again?
This is what Howard Dean said after his 2nd place win in New Hampshire following the loss in Iowa:
"We can take back America and stand up for working families and middle-class families again, and take our government back for the people who built it instead of corporations and special interests -- and we will," Dean told supporters.
If Obama takes the fall for the dire situation the country found itself in, in Jan 2009 - and we get a health care plan which benefits the insurance industry (a direction HCR is headed in) - leaving a field open for challengers - Dean would be in a good position. His populist message and ability to involve the netroots and the youth was unique then, and has become more relevant now.
Dean excited the grassroots and the youth of the country - blazing a trail that Obama followed after him. Remember the 'Deaniacs'? Now, Dean has learned the ropes and has organized in all 50 states. He also has not postioned himself as part of the Obama administration.
If Obama's popularity falls and Sarah Palin captures enough support to challenge the republican moderates, especially as a third party candidate - Dean would find himself positioned to be a serious candidate. People are weary of war and more focused on domestic issues - the economy, employment, health care and infrastructure.
Just some early analysis and speculation. The health care reform issue is that important and there is a growing disaffection within the ranks of the progressives.
"We can take back America and stand up for working families and middle-class families again, and take our government back for the people who built it instead of corporations and special interests -- and we will," Dean told supporters.
If Obama takes the fall for the dire situation the country found itself in, in Jan 2009 - and we get a health care plan which benefits the insurance industry (a direction HCR is headed in) - leaving a field open for challengers - Dean would be in a good position. His populist message and ability to involve the netroots and the youth was unique then, and has become more relevant now.
Dean excited the grassroots and the youth of the country - blazing a trail that Obama followed after him. Remember the 'Deaniacs'? Now, Dean has learned the ropes and has organized in all 50 states. He also has not postioned himself as part of the Obama administration.
If Obama's popularity falls and Sarah Palin captures enough support to challenge the republican moderates, especially as a third party candidate - Dean would find himself positioned to be a serious candidate. People are weary of war and more focused on domestic issues - the economy, employment, health care and infrastructure.
Just some early analysis and speculation. The health care reform issue is that important and there is a growing disaffection within the ranks of the progressives.
I have always been and remain an ardent supporter of Howard Dean. Since I can never have Dennis Kucinich, Dean is my second favorite. Although Alan Grayson is looking mighty fine as well, and Al Franken is up there for sure.
What bothers me is that none of the progressives - Grayson, Franken, Weiner, etc. - are willing to stand up and not vote for this weak bill. Why? Why can't their principled stand against a bad bill balance Liebermann's unethical stand against all good bills?
Sigh. All it really takes is for ONE senator to do the right thing.
What bothers me is that none of the progressives - Grayson, Franken, Weiner, etc. - are willing to stand up and not vote for this weak bill. Why? Why can't their principled stand against a bad bill balance Liebermann's unethical stand against all good bills?
Sigh. All it really takes is for ONE senator to do the right thing.
Anchors Aweigh!
Moderate Republicans will not accept Sarah Palin as the nominee of the Republican party in 2012 just as for better or worse was the case with Barry Goldwater in 1964. Because the party is aware of this and will take whatever legal and necessary steps to undermine her and prevent this, she is unlikely to be the party nominee.
Still, I feel she may well be the nominee of the Libertarian party or less likely run as an Independent. This would likely also insure a Republican defeat in 2012 unless President Obama is thoroughly perceived as being an extremely weak and ineffective President by a significant portion of the American people at that time including portions of the Democratic base.
If that happens, it would create an opening for Governor Dean to enter the race. Perhaps as a Green party candidate but more likely as an Independent.
If under such circumstances Palin challenges from the Right, Dean from the Left, with the Republican nominee representing the Center-Right, and President Obama the Center-Left in a four way race involving these major contenders (who all are adequately funded from whatever source, perhaps wealthy Vice Presidential nominees for Palin and Dean who are willing to spend whatever necessary; Bloomberg, Perot types, etc. which is permissible under current election finance laws), the country would be in for the most fascinating election since the four way contest between Abraham Lincoln, Stephen Douglas, John Bell , and John Breckinridge in1860.
Just as in the 1912 three way contest between Woodrow Wilson, William Howard Taft, and Theodore Roosevelt, any of these candidates would have a chance to win with the electorate being so fragmented and the potential would also exist for the election to produce no clear result with the Electoral College unable to decide a winner with the House of Representatives deciding the outcome based on one vote per state delegation, as was the situation in the 1824 election between John Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson, and Henry Clay. Adams prevailed but as a result of what Democrats still refer to as a "corrupt bargain" between Clay and Adams.
The country would be offered a variety of truly different and visible competing visions to choose from unlike in most recent campaigns if there were such a four way DEM-GOP-Palin-Dean contest. However, the potential for polarization of the electorate to the extreme would be greatly magnified and as noted earlier any of these candidates could prevail under such conditions. Many would find it extremely hard to accept the election results, especially if Sarah Palin or Howard Dean were to actually win the Presidency in such a scenario.
Amazingly Possible, Truly Fascinating, and Somewhat Frightening. We live in interesting times!
Still, I feel she may well be the nominee of the Libertarian party or less likely run as an Independent. This would likely also insure a Republican defeat in 2012 unless President Obama is thoroughly perceived as being an extremely weak and ineffective President by a significant portion of the American people at that time including portions of the Democratic base.
If that happens, it would create an opening for Governor Dean to enter the race. Perhaps as a Green party candidate but more likely as an Independent.
If under such circumstances Palin challenges from the Right, Dean from the Left, with the Republican nominee representing the Center-Right, and President Obama the Center-Left in a four way race involving these major contenders (who all are adequately funded from whatever source, perhaps wealthy Vice Presidential nominees for Palin and Dean who are willing to spend whatever necessary; Bloomberg, Perot types, etc. which is permissible under current election finance laws), the country would be in for the most fascinating election since the four way contest between Abraham Lincoln, Stephen Douglas, John Bell , and John Breckinridge in1860.
Just as in the 1912 three way contest between Woodrow Wilson, William Howard Taft, and Theodore Roosevelt, any of these candidates would have a chance to win with the electorate being so fragmented and the potential would also exist for the election to produce no clear result with the Electoral College unable to decide a winner with the House of Representatives deciding the outcome based on one vote per state delegation, as was the situation in the 1824 election between John Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson, and Henry Clay. Adams prevailed but as a result of what Democrats still refer to as a "corrupt bargain" between Clay and Adams.
The country would be offered a variety of truly different and visible competing visions to choose from unlike in most recent campaigns if there were such a four way DEM-GOP-Palin-Dean contest. However, the potential for polarization of the electorate to the extreme would be greatly magnified and as noted earlier any of these candidates could prevail under such conditions. Many would find it extremely hard to accept the election results, especially if Sarah Palin or Howard Dean were to actually win the Presidency in such a scenario.
Amazingly Possible, Truly Fascinating, and Somewhat Frightening. We live in interesting times!
racehorse
racehorse wrote: If under such circumstances Palin challenges from the Right, Dean from the Left, with the Republican nominee representing the Center-Right, and President Obama the Center-Left in a four way race involving these major contenders the country would be in for the most fascinating election since the four way contest between Abraham Lincoln, Stephen Douglas, John Bell , and John Breckinridge in1860.
Amazingly Possible, Truly Fascinating, and Somewhat Frightening. We live in interesting times!
Compelling essay, Race!!
Did you ever stop to think, and then forget to start again?
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Psychicwolf
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racehorse wrote:
If under such circumstances Palin challenges from the Right, Dean from the Left, with the Republican nominee representing the Center-Right, and President Obama the Center-Left in a four way race involving these major contenders (who all are adequately funded from whatever source, perhaps wealthy Vice Presidential nominees for Palin and Dean who are willing to spend whatever necessary; Bloomberg, Perot types, etc. which is permissible under current election finance laws), the country would be in for the most fascinating election since the four way contest between Abraham Lincoln, Stephen Douglas, John Bell , and John Breckinridge in1860.
Amazingly Possible, Truly Fascinating, and Somewhat Frightening. We live in interesting times!
A fascinating thought indeed. At this point I would probably support Dean. I think the obstructionism both major parties have displayed and the rise in populism has perhaps brought us to a point where the citizens want a chance to REALLY decide which direction this country needs to head.
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http://politicalwire.com/archives/2009/ ... stake.html
December 16, 2009
Was Snubbing Dean a Mistake?
By not pulling former DNC Chairman Howard Dean into the administration, the White House left an influential voice free to say whatever he wants -- and now he's attacking President Obama's top domestic policy initiative.
First Read: "Remember that when Tim Kaine was tapped to be the new DNC chairman, Dean wasn't at the Obama-Kaine press conference announcing the move. Instead, he was in American Samoa, but his allies maintained he would have canceled that trip had he been given a heads up about the press conference."
"What's more, Dean never got a plum position in the Obama administration. Possibly adding insult to injury, few DNC aides who worked for Dean initially got top jobs in the Obama administration."
December 16, 2009
Was Snubbing Dean a Mistake?
By not pulling former DNC Chairman Howard Dean into the administration, the White House left an influential voice free to say whatever he wants -- and now he's attacking President Obama's top domestic policy initiative.
First Read: "Remember that when Tim Kaine was tapped to be the new DNC chairman, Dean wasn't at the Obama-Kaine press conference announcing the move. Instead, he was in American Samoa, but his allies maintained he would have canceled that trip had he been given a heads up about the press conference."
"What's more, Dean never got a plum position in the Obama administration. Possibly adding insult to injury, few DNC aides who worked for Dean initially got top jobs in the Obama administration."
racehorse
Racehorse, your analysis is interesting regarding a 4-way split, but I find that unrealistic. While Sarah Palin is poised to take her possible candidacy to run as an independent, I do not see this scenario for Gov Dean. If momentum builds for a Dean candidacy, it would be as a challenger for the Democratic Party nomination.
While I do not see Dean as a spoiler/challenger of an incumbent president - I can see him gaining support as a nominee for the Democrats if Obama tanks in the polls, etc... or (not impossible) decides to be a one term president. If the Democrats lose ground in the mid-term elections, further weakening an Obama presidency, this may well be the scenario.
As you might remember, there was a furiously fought primary battle in 2008 - with Obama garnering about 50% of the support. Remember Hillary Clinton? Well, HRC has been taken 'inside the tent' making a challenge by her more difficult. Dean would not have that problem, and could get an early start.
We might just now be seeing the beginnings of a movement toward Howard Dean, especially as the main focus of the Obama presidency has formed around this health care reform issue, which is not going well for him. HCR has come to represent the weakness of the Democrats and Obama's ineffectiveness, even his willingness to allow a fatally flawed health care bill which is a disaster for 'the people' and a sell-out to the health insurance industry.
More and more, progressives are falling away from Obama, and Howard Dean is especially positioned to be a natural progressive spokesman on the health care reform issue.
While I do not see Dean as a spoiler/challenger of an incumbent president - I can see him gaining support as a nominee for the Democrats if Obama tanks in the polls, etc... or (not impossible) decides to be a one term president. If the Democrats lose ground in the mid-term elections, further weakening an Obama presidency, this may well be the scenario.
As you might remember, there was a furiously fought primary battle in 2008 - with Obama garnering about 50% of the support. Remember Hillary Clinton? Well, HRC has been taken 'inside the tent' making a challenge by her more difficult. Dean would not have that problem, and could get an early start.
We might just now be seeing the beginnings of a movement toward Howard Dean, especially as the main focus of the Obama presidency has formed around this health care reform issue, which is not going well for him. HCR has come to represent the weakness of the Democrats and Obama's ineffectiveness, even his willingness to allow a fatally flawed health care bill which is a disaster for 'the people' and a sell-out to the health insurance industry.
More and more, progressives are falling away from Obama, and Howard Dean is especially positioned to be a natural progressive spokesman on the health care reform issue.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finke ... ection-bid
Dean: I Won't 'Vigorously' Back Obama Re-election Bid
By Mark Finkelstein
December 17, 2009 - 08:11 ET
Pour some more butter on the popcorn . . .
Yesterday, Obama press secretary Robert Gibbs took shots at Howard Dean and his opposition to ObamaCare, suggesting the good doctor didn't know what he was talking about.
It was payback time this morning, as Dean announced that he would "not vigorously" back Pres. Obama's re-election bid.
The former DNC Chairman expressed his tepid support for Obama, Part Deux on today's Morning Joe in response to new poll data indicating Pres. Obama's popularity, and public support for ObamaCare, have fallen to all-time lows.
Joe Scarborough suggested that Dean would be accused of dragging down his party and helping Republicans.
HOWARD DEAN: Look, here's the thing: every politician says this and I hesitate to do it because they all say it, but sometimes the country's more important than either party.
JOE SCARBOROUGH: Amen.
DEAN: I'm going to support President Obama when he runs for re-election. Not vigorously. I'm going to vote for him.
Scarborough can be heard bursting into laughter off-camera.
DEAN: I am, I am.
SCARBOROUGH: "Not vigorously." Boy, I can almost feel the confetti [presumably from GOP victory celebrations] falling on my head here!
My two cents: the MSM has largely been portraying Dean as a principled progressive opponent of ObamaCare. I say that good old personal spite might also be motivating Doc Dean. Remember that it was the very same Robert Gibbs who, during the 2003 Dem presidential primary campaign, was behind a TV ad showing OBL and suggesting Dean was incapable of protecting American's national security. PBO has also hurt Dean's feelings, snubbing him for the HHS Secretary post which many Dems felt was his due.
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle.
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Dean: I Won't 'Vigorously' Back Obama Re-election Bid
By Mark Finkelstein
December 17, 2009 - 08:11 ET
Pour some more butter on the popcorn . . .
Yesterday, Obama press secretary Robert Gibbs took shots at Howard Dean and his opposition to ObamaCare, suggesting the good doctor didn't know what he was talking about.
It was payback time this morning, as Dean announced that he would "not vigorously" back Pres. Obama's re-election bid.
The former DNC Chairman expressed his tepid support for Obama, Part Deux on today's Morning Joe in response to new poll data indicating Pres. Obama's popularity, and public support for ObamaCare, have fallen to all-time lows.
Joe Scarborough suggested that Dean would be accused of dragging down his party and helping Republicans.
HOWARD DEAN: Look, here's the thing: every politician says this and I hesitate to do it because they all say it, but sometimes the country's more important than either party.
JOE SCARBOROUGH: Amen.
DEAN: I'm going to support President Obama when he runs for re-election. Not vigorously. I'm going to vote for him.
Scarborough can be heard bursting into laughter off-camera.
DEAN: I am, I am.
SCARBOROUGH: "Not vigorously." Boy, I can almost feel the confetti [presumably from GOP victory celebrations] falling on my head here!
My two cents: the MSM has largely been portraying Dean as a principled progressive opponent of ObamaCare. I say that good old personal spite might also be motivating Doc Dean. Remember that it was the very same Robert Gibbs who, during the 2003 Dem presidential primary campaign, was behind a TV ad showing OBL and suggesting Dean was incapable of protecting American's national security. PBO has also hurt Dean's feelings, snubbing him for the HHS Secretary post which many Dems felt was his due.
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle.
--
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racehorse
Well, that's politics. Just remember, you heard it here first, on the Fantastic Forum. 
Thanks for the research and great articles, racehorse. You are a fantastic resource for all things political.
Why are we talking about 2012? Because it is almost 2010!
Regarding my thoughts on Obama? He ran a campaign based on the immediacy of hope and change, but is revealing more and more as his administration goes on, that his style is more of a cautious incrementalist and er...well, appeaser. The momentum which carried him into office has been frittered away. One cannot micro-manage 'hope and change'. Hope and change require a strong leader, not an iconic symbol.
imo...
Prepare for a populist wave, with Sarah Palin leading the charge from the right.
Thanks for the research and great articles, racehorse. You are a fantastic resource for all things political.
Why are we talking about 2012? Because it is almost 2010!
Regarding my thoughts on Obama? He ran a campaign based on the immediacy of hope and change, but is revealing more and more as his administration goes on, that his style is more of a cautious incrementalist and er...well, appeaser. The momentum which carried him into office has been frittered away. One cannot micro-manage 'hope and change'. Hope and change require a strong leader, not an iconic symbol.
imo...
Prepare for a populist wave, with Sarah Palin leading the charge from the right.
There are some things that I am disappointed about Laura, Health care is one of them right now. I still support him and am cutting him some slack, he walked into a mess on 1/20/09 and its not a mess that will be cleaned up overnight. However, the health care, doesn't resemble what I had hoped for or what I have been fighting for, I don't blame that all on him. But he does need to put his foot down and as Linnea said stop trying to make everyone happy.Live365 wrote: Is Obama this big of a disappointment? Already?
I am extremely disappointed in all those that are supposed to be speaking for us and are not. Race posted an article earlier today that all incumbants had better be very concerned. I agree with that all the way. I think many are very comfortable in their jobs WITH their healthcare.
Regarding Howard Dean, he seems to have some wind beneath his wings right now and I like him, very much. But its too soon to say how things will go imo.