Great to hear Mr. Alper, but sad to hear his state of mind

LockeJV · Post by **LockeJV** » 12-06-2004 01:14 PM

As a former fundamentalist baptist who constantly struggled with his faith, Matthew Alper's theories allowed me to find peace with my religious uncertainties. In 1998 on C2C, Alper was the first person I ever heard that provided a rational explanation for the existence of religion.

I bought his book, and caught his next few interviews on C2C over the years. I was encouraged by the progress the scientific community made with genetics, and how it only seemed to support his theories. I also noticed that the C2C audience seemed to be less hostile towards his controversial topic with each appearance.

Then comes Sunday, December 5th, 2004. Alper appears on C2C, and sounds depressed and disturbed. We come to find out Dean Hamer of the National Cancer Institue published a book where he claims to have discovered "The God Gene", or as Alper coined it, "The God Part of the Brain". Alper rambled on about how his life work had been ripped off, and understandably was quite frustrated that "his" ideas appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, credited to one of the people he sent a free copy of his book. Hamer's book makes global headlines and sells lots of copies... and Alper, who's probably barely middle class, gets nothing.

When Art asked if he would write another book, Alper just responded "Why? So it can just get stolen again?" It was as if he's given up. I get the impression last night was Alper's last appearance on C2C. It's really too bad, because after 7 years of listening to the show, he was my favorite guest. He truly had an impact on my life.

Guess I just want to say good luck to Matthew Alper, hang in there, and I hope to hear you on C2C again someday when you publish another book.

dotcosm · Post by **dotcosm** » 12-06-2004 01:25 PM

I didn't listen to this interview, and in fact I avoid listening to C2C when Alper is on anyway (more than I usually avoid C2C these days, that is). When I first heard him years ago, I found too many holes in his thesis that he just glibly asserted, and that put me off to him and I've never reassessed.

However, this business of stealing somebody's work is pretty much SOP in science, so he's certainly not alone in what he's experiencing. Many people respond exactly like him, and change fields. It's a hard reality to deal with.

LockeJV · Post by **LockeJV** » 12-06-2004 02:09 PM

dotcosm wrote: When I first heard him years ago, I found too many holes in his thesis that he just glibly asserted, and that put me off to him and I've never reassessed.

For example?

fabzilla · Post by **fabzilla** » 12-06-2004 02:12 PM

I feel like sending him a box of tissues and a six pack to wallow in his pitifull sorrows. Actually he stepped all over his own theory on multiple counts. The whole thing was a sales pitch, Art's gotta soft spot for this guy if you can't tell! He definately needs therapy or something, maybe a one on one with himself.
fab

vigo · Post by **vigo** » 12-06-2004 02:57 PM

fabzilla wrote: I feel like sending him a box of tissues and a six pack to wallow in his pitifull sorrows. Actually he stepped all over his own theory on multiple counts. The whole thing was a sales pitch, Art's gotta soft spot for this guy if you can't tell! He definately needs therapy or something, maybe a one on one with himself.
fab

Well put. I really feel for him. Even if I don't agree with the guy. It must be a terrible thing to stick your neck out on a belief and have the dang thing swiped away.

He does sound confused though.

dotcosm · Post by **dotcosm** » 12-06-2004 02:59 PM

LockeJV wrote: For example?

Unfortunately I cannot, off the top of my head, answer that question, since when I dismiss some data I hear, I usually don't afford any space for said data to remain in my mind (limited space, y'know), and while I'm sure I could reproduce my thinking if I went back and either listened to or read what Alper said/says, well, it's not worth my time, unfortunately. I know I shouldn't make such comments that I cannot backup, but yet I did, so there ya go.

LockeJV · Post by **LockeJV** » 12-06-2004 04:17 PM

fabzilla wrote: Actually he stepped all over his own theory on multiple counts. The whole thing was a sales pitch

For example?

mudwoman · Post by **mudwoman** » 12-06-2004 04:33 PM

LockeJV,

Thank you so much for your well written and well considered post.

I am also one who has followed Alper's work, and found a great deal in his findings with which I agree.

I have never had much in the way of "religious uncertainties", as you describe. I am an atheist. I have always been an atheist as long as I can remember. I never had much internal struggle about that, but as a member of a larger society in which religion is an integral part, I have certainly felt the harsh sting of being "different". It was refreshing to hear an intelligent, well spoken, thoughtful man like Alper give voice to the observation that some folks are just not hard wired to be believers.

I am saddened that his work was stolen. It is an all to common occurrence in the academic community. I can understand why he seems disheartened, I would be too.

btw: Spirituality and athsism are not mutually exclusive. One need not have a beleif in gods, or a god, to be a spiritual person. This is another discussion, and I have written about it at some length, here on the Fantastic Forum. I see no need, at this time, to restate my thougts.

vigo · Post by **vigo** » 12-06-2004 05:07 PM

mudwoman wrote: LockeJV,

btw: Spirituality and athsism are not mutually exclusive. One need not have a beleif in gods, or a god, to be a spiritual person. This is another discussion, and I have written about it at some length, here on the Fantastic Forum. I see no need, at this time, to restate my thougts.

Well said. Although a Christian by choice I find that many of our views are similar. I wholehearted agree that in your context persons can be spiritual without attachment to a diety. Your concern for others reflects a thoughtfulness that is spiritfilled.

Enjoying your spirit Woman of the earth.

Westward Ho · Post by **Westward Ho** » 12-06-2004 05:46 PM

Science and academia are very competitive. I would suggest that the ideas that Alper proposed were not his alone, i.e., not his original concept in a vacuum.

Melvin Morse, the noted child's Near Death Experience physician (who my husband knows personally - I seldom get to name drop) has believed for many years that there is a physical God "receiving station" so to speak for transcendant experiences in the brain. Without this hardwiring, how could anyone download an ineffable experience from the mind to the head's cauliflower (brain) so it could be translated into concept and language for us to share?

I am sorry Alper is feeling ripped off. I agree that this is probably pretty common in science, but the other guy must have been able to substantiate the theory, versus just discussing it with the all-nighter crowd on a paranormal oriented talk radio show. Did Alper really think this was the proper way to get his name into the history books?

This is a slick society. Perhaps Alper needed a much better literary and publicity agent and some knowledge in how to schmooze within the medical/scientific establishment.

What are Alper's credentials versus the other guys? Anyone know? In such circles, some alphabet codes after your name in terms of credentials matter a great deal.

Here is an interesting analogy of sorts:

Wayne Dyer is a famous author of millions of self-help and pop psychology books. Now he has written another best seller about the power of mental intention. Well, I read it and immediately recognized that ALL his ideas were coming directly from the Jerry and Esther Hicks CHANNELED writings of the entity ABRAHAM. Of course, in "polite" society, Dyers would never admit to being an avid follower of such improper materials!

Well, I ain't as dumb as I sometimes think! The Hicks came out with another channeled book that summarizes the teachings of Abraham over the last 10 years called ASK AND IT IS GIVEN.
Who did the prelude? Wayne Dyer! Showing some integrity, the man confessed that all his latest works (making perhaps big bucks) were based on the Hicks' materials, which are hardly a house hold name.

So the content is not what matters. Excuse the pun, but the medium is the message, as Marshall McLuhan said decades ago. If Jesus was on earth today, he'd need someone like Wayne Dyer to get his ideas across to the public via PBS and books. Jesus wouldn't stand a chance unless he was like the pretty Greek musician Yanny who became the "protege" of Linda Evans about 15 years ago and suddenly was a major media hit with his New Age elevator music.

Note: Wow, seems like a good plot for another Monte Python movie - how Jesus was just a publicity front man with the proper networking credentials who stole all his ideas and printed them under his name. The real author was this guy named Judas who got really pissed and tried to get revenge on Jesus (a real Art Bell thing to do....see different thread) but lost out because the authorities were on Jesus side and so Judas got a bad press for 2000 years. I can envision Alper going after his nemesis and ending up having "Alper" become synonymous with treachury for the next 2000 years.

Don't mind me - all I've had to eat today is an oatmeal cookie with the kids. Yes, THEY ate a fine lunch after I stopped the aerial exchange of blue berries.

LockeJV · Post by **LockeJV** » 12-07-2004 12:06 AM

Westward Ho wrote: I would suggest that the ideas that Alper proposed were not his alone, i.e., not his original concept in a vacuum.

I am sorry Alper is feeling ripped off. I agree that this is probably pretty common in science, but the other guy must have been able to substantiate the theory, versus just discussing it with the all-nighter crowd on a paranormal oriented talk radio show. Did Alper really think this was the proper way to get his name into the history books?

Perhaps Alper needed a much better literary and publicity agent and some knowledge in how to schmooze within the medical/scientific establishment.

What are Alper's credentials versus the other guys? Anyone know?

Alper doesn't have any academic credentials that I'm aware of. I understand he decided to dedicate his life to the pursuit of "God" so to speak, and he published his conclusions in his book. Dean Hamer - Ph.D. from Harvard Medical School, recently published his findings on the homosexual gene which stirred up all kinds of controversy. Also, his official title, "Chief of the Section on Gene Structure and Regulation in the Laboratory of Biochemistry of the National Cancer Institute", really says it all. Hamer has the scientific community on a string, while Alper is really just some average guy.

Alper pieced together a lot of existing material in his book, but he feels he was unique in his major premise - that a religious component of the brain evolved to cope with mankind's fear of mortality. Can he claim that theory is his? I don't know, but I would think that others published similar ideas long before he did.

I'm not sure if his goal was to get in the history books, or to be immortalized as a philosopher. He doesn't have 1/100th of the resources that Hamer has. I don't think he had much help along the way, hell, he was distributing the books from his own apartment. He did reach a wider audience than most authors, and I think he should be proud of his accomplishments.

Alper went out of his way to thank Art last night, you could sense his gratitude for the role Art played in his "15 minutes". I hope he continues his pursuit of truth, and I would be very intersted in his future work.

fabzilla · Post by **fabzilla** » 12-07-2004 04:45 AM

LockeJV wrote: For example?

I will not listen to the archive, he really needs to focus on cleaning up some of the "generalizations" in his theory. Too many open windows. I'm not saying conceptually he is wrong, interesting ideas, but he needs to focus on the "driving" force of his implications and be a little more critical of the paths he goes down when talking to the "lay' people in the audience. Computers don't have feelings, and feelings rarely compute.
fab

Devastated · Post by **Devastated** » 12-07-2004 07:02 AM

If I had to struggle with the "God" that Alper alludes to, I'd be an atheist too.

moonchild2 · Post by **moonchild2** » 12-08-2004 02:58 AM

btw: Spirituality and athsism are not mutually exclusive. One need not have a beleif in gods, or a god, to be a spiritual person. This is another discussion, and I have written about it at some length, here on the Fantastic Forum. I see no need, at this time, to restate my thougts.
___________________________________________________

The above so explains my feelings. I am anti religion and God but am spriitual. I just can't wrap my brain around all creations as being the work of one single entity. Sprituality and athiesm being not mutually exclusive, will help my struggling brain. Exellent thought. Thanks!

LockeJV · Post by **LockeJV** » 12-05-2006 07:54 AM

Good to hear Mr. Alper is doing well

Or at least better than last time he was on. I wish Art had the interview but what can you do. When he first presented his ideas back in '98 he was met with quite a bit of hostility on the show; seems people are a bit more accepting of his ideas now than back then.

Anyone have thoughts on his latest appearance?