Reports Coming In of Major Raids by Feds in SE MI and NE OH

[Joolz]

So, are you suggesting that the FBI agent who infiltrated this group was a provocateur who planted these ideas about a violent incident and uprising in Mr. Stone's head? I'm not seeing it. Especially not given the details that have emerged from others who knew him, even within the same article you referenced. Sometimes things are just as they seem. No conspiracies. And that seems to be the case here.

The important thing is that no one was killed. None of the Hutaree members were killed in the arrests, and if what has been purported to have been a Hutaree plot to kill innocents is true -- and I see no reason at present to disbelieve this -- then future heinous crimes -- mass murders! -- have been prevented. I see nothing but good in this.

I can buy some conspiracies some of the time, but not here. Not this time. Sorry. I'm with Corvid and SL here. The FBI did nothing wrong here. This time, it seems to me they did their job. Plain and simple.

[SquidInk]

So, are you suggesting that the FBI agent who infiltrated this group was a provocateur who planted these ideas about a violent incident and uprising in Mr. Stone's head? I'm not seeing it. Especially not given the details that have emerged from others who knew him, even within the same article you referenced. Sometimes things are just as they seem. No conspiracies. And that seems to be the case here.

The important thing is that no one was killed. None of the Hutaree members were killed in the arrests, and if what has been purported to have been a Hutaree plot to kill innocents is true -- and I see no reason at present to disbelieve this -- then future heinous crimes -- mass murders! -- have been prevented. I see nothing but good in this.

I can buy some conspiracies some of the time, but not here. Not this time. Sorry. I'm with Corvid and SL here. The FBI did nothing wrong here. This time, it seems to me they did their job. Plain and simple.

What the FBI did was "legal", and I never said otherwise.

I agree that sometimes things are just as they seem, and this may be one of those times. But you and I have no way of discerning that, so the safe thing to do (IMHO), in order to avoid a descent into tyranny, is to doubt what we are told unless we know it to be true.

So, are you suggesting that the FBI agent who infiltrated this group was a provocateur who planted these ideas about a violent incident and uprising in Mr. Stone's head? I'm not seeing it.

No, these people develop the ideas on their own, but generally they require "assistance" to take it to the next level. Just ask that "white supremacist" Randy what's-his-name up at Ruby Ridge, who was "assisted" in buying a shotgun that was 1/4" shorter than the legal limit, and who then had his wife and child shot dead before his eyes.

Missiles are not for sale at the army/navy store.

[Raggedyann]

These militia's operate on the belief that the U.S. Gov't is going to come storm trooping through suburbia, arrest innocent citizens by the millions and lock them up in secret compounds. No wait, they will be transported in train box cars to the compounds. Another conspiracy theory that I can't wrap my head around. And isn't Glenn Beck just having a ball playing up this nonsense?

Sorry but I also see them for just what they are...dangerous wing nuts. If there was a Gov't that had the capacity to do this, it would have been the last one and they didn't.

[Joolz]

Sorry but I also see them for just what they are...dangerous wing nuts. If there was a Gov't that had the capacity to do this, it would have been the last one and they didn't.

Thank you, RA.

[Joolz]

What the FBI did was "legal", and I never said otherwise.

I agree that sometimes things are just as they seem, and this may be one of those times. But you and I have no way of discerning that, so the safe thing to do (IMHO), in order to avoid a descent into tyranny, is to doubt what we are told unless we know it to be true.



No, these people develop the ideas on their own, but generally they require "assistance" to take it to the next level. Just ask that "white supremacist" Randy what's-his-name up at Ruby Ridge, who was "assisted" in buying a shotgun that was 1/4" shorter than the legal limit, and who then had his wife and child shot dead before his eyes.

Missiles are not for sale at the army/navy store.

I am a bit confused by your first statement. You referred to the infiltrating FBI agent as a "provocateur on the inside," and I expressed doubt that the agent was a provocateur, particularly in the manner suggested. I never used the word "illegal," however.

I hear you on vigilance -- and I AM and will always be vigilant -- but as RA pointed out, been there, done that, scared the crap outta myself for years. It didn't happen. Doubt can cut both ways. There is much disinformation out there in this realm as well. 'Nuff said on that.

As for the final paragraph, I fail to see how that relates to this. We're talking about homemade weapons, pipe bombs. No one was "assisting" anyone to procure anything beyond that level, according to what I've read. The next "level" was something they were perfectly capable of carrying out on their own without any such assistance. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

If it turns out to be something other than what is being presented, or there is reasonable cause for suspicion, I'll be paying attention. No worry. But at this point, I see no reason to take this as anything other than what it seems. It's not Ruby Ridge. No one has died.

I don't want to argue. I really don't. I obviously feel differently than you about this. I am very glad that what I see as a bunch of violent whackos were prevented from carrying out a murder and a massacre of innocents. Beyond that, we'll see what shakes out in the trial.

[Joolz]

I am curious why those that use IED's in Arab Countries are called terrorists but those that were going to use the same device's against their own citizens are not called terrorists. These people are terrorists American terrorists, and I notice today these "anti-government" people decided to use State paid for Attorneys. Ironic.

Before it gets lost in the fray here , I wanted to comment on this statement. I agree with you. I see no difference, either. They are ALL terrorists, IMO. And yeah, I noticed that they chose to use public defenders, too. heh

[Linnea]

Good articles in the NY Times:

The Government and the Militia Movement

The F.B.I.’s raids against members of a Michigan-based Christian militia over the weekend added to concerns about rising far-right activity across the country. Nine members of the group, called the Hutaree, face sedition and weapons charges in a scheme to kill law enforcement officers to incite an antigovernment revolt.

As the government deals with the re-emerging militia movement, what did it learn from the experiences of the 1990s, from the disastrous sieges in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in 1992 and at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Tex., in 1993 to its handling of Oklahoma City bombing case?

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/ ... overnment/

[SquidInk]

Right, it might have been the mentally challenged lunatics from NY, which the FBI assisted with inert missiles and launchers.

But okay Joolz, we disagree.

[SETIsLady]

I noticed that they chose to use public defenders, too. heh

Rawstory has an interesting article on this today.

Militia members receive government money

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0401/militi ... ent-money/

[HB3]

Here's part of an interesting article....

I didn’t know at the time that there was a story published in The Village Voice in July 09 which confirmed my suspicion that the state is not omnipotent. It’s about a Pakistani named Shahed Hussain who was caught taking driver’s license exams for other immigrants. In exchange for leniency and not being deported, he became an FBI informant and started prowling Mosques for low IQ victims he could entrap. He finally found one man that he worked on for a year and convinced the mark to loan him ,000, supposedly to assassinate Pakistani president at the time Pervez Musharraf. The mark kept telling Hussain that he didn’t believe in terrorism and wanted nothing to do with his plans, but needed money and was finally overwhelmed by the informant’s stronger will. Under Islamic law, the deal needed a witness so they went to the imam at the local mosque, who oversaw the transaction and printed up receipts. Both the imam and the lender ended up getting fifteen years in prison.

After this, Hussain moved on to four black Muslims. He would pay their rent and buy them food and cell phones, offer to pay medical bills and give them cars. Some of them were so annoyed by their new overeager Pakistani friend that they would hide from him when he came around, but Hussain harassed his victims for a year until they agreed to plant what they thought were explosives in a few synagogues. Among the arrested was a crack addict described as “mildly retarded.” About another, a girlfriend said that he never mentioned Afghanistan and “just liked to work and play video games and smoke a little weed.”

First they came for the Muslims... This month Washington needed a great white defendant and so they found some “Christian fundamentalists” to round up. According to The New York Times,

"Mark Potok, who leads a program that tracks right-wing groups for the Southern Poverty Law Center, said it first took note of the Hutaree last year amid a surge in new 'Patriot' movement groups, race-based hate groups, extremist anti-immigrant groups, Christian militants and other variations.

'We’re seeing all kinds of radical right-wing groups grow very rapidly, especially in the militia world,' Mr. Potok said.

The indictment said the Hutaree, in anticipation of a war against its enemies, had been engaging in 'military-style training,' from weapons proficiency drills to 'close quarter battle drills' and the use of 'ambush kill zones.' The small group had acquired guns, ammunition, medical supplies, uniforms, communications equipment and 'explosives and other components for destructive devices,' it said.

After attacking the police, the members planned to retreat to several planned 'rally points' and wait for the authorities to come after them. They were preparing fighting positions as well as 'trip-wired and command-detonated' bombs, it said."

It probably went something like this...

FBI Informant: ZOG is coming! We have to fight back!

Simple bumpkin: Gee, I don’t know...

FBI Informant: We must act now! Jon Smith on Maple Street is a cop. They’re the foot soldiers of the NWO.

Simple bumpkin: You mean the wrestlers?

FBI Informant: No, no, no. I mean the agents of ZOG. We need to take him out.

Simple bumpkin: Um, what?

FBI Informant: Yes, that’s what we’ll do. And then we can bomb his funeral! And then hide out in the woods until they come for us! We’ll fight to the last man.

Simple bumpkin: <suppressing a laugh> Um, ok man. Just let me know when you’ve got this all planned.

FBI Informant: Deal, see you tomorrow.

<Simple bumpkin goes inside, tells him wife about this weirdo he just met. The next day, the FBI comes, takes Simple bumpkin away and throws him in a hole to die. FBI Informant's handler gets a medal, the Department of Homeland Security issues a statement showing appreciation for those protecting our freedoms.>

http://www.alternativeright.com/main/bl ... he-low-iq/

[HB3]

Now here's a question for the true believers...do you think the beginning of this excerpt, the description the Village Voice article, is potentially accurate, but the scenario at the end of the excerpt is not? If not, why?

[HB3]

Hey, how's the psy-ops workin' out for ya, freedom-loving Democrats?

FBI warns extremist letters may encourage violence
AP

By EILEEN SULLIVAN and DEVLIN BARRETT, Associated Press Writer Eileen Sullivan And Devlin Barrett, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 15 mins ago

WASHINGTON – The FBI is warning police across the country that an anti-government group's call to remove governors from office could provoke violence by others.

A group that calls itself the Guardians of the free Republics wants to "restore America" by peacefully dismantling parts of the government, according to its Web site.

As of Wednesday, more than 30 governors had received letters saying if they don't leave office within three days they will be removed, according to an internal intelligence note by the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security. The note was obtained by The Associated Press.

Investigators do not see threats of violence in the group's message, but fear the broad call for removing top state officials could lead others to act out violently.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100402/ap_ ... extremists

[Corvid]

What would I have the FBI do? What relevance does that have to the matter?

None of us has access to the unfettered truth in these matters. So I am left to examine the activities of these agencies over the last century or so, and form conclusions, without the benefit of being told the un-spun truth.

Apparently the FBI had a provocateur on the inside here, too. - source

It's only a matter of time until we find out what really happened - as we did recently regarding the "terrorism" in Mumbai...



It's always the same story.

But you know that, because you remember how agents provocateur were routinely employed during the 1960's, as the federal government mobilized to frame up the voices of dissent.

These half-wit hutaree clowns may or may not have had the chops to pull off some sort attack on the cops, but we'll never know. What do we really know about this situation besides what we are spoon-fed by the msm?

Certain elements of our society have found it advantageous (I guess) to march hither & yon, engaging in nearly 100 years of constant lies, fraud, deception, and mass murder. One unfortunate side effect of such decision making is that those elements can no longer be trusted to deliver the truth, or to act selflessly in defense of the nation.

I apologize if you are finding my lack of faith disturbing.

Half wit Gomers and Bubbas CAN do damage, never doubt that.... and, as SETIsLady pointed out in another thread, there can be significant death and damage. If, however, you REALLY do want to feed your paranoid angel then think about the non Bubba nutbags who might just be highly placed in Americas "christian" Army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea9JVnck_-E

[OMG]

Here's what I don't get, The right-wingers actually bragged at the beginning of the previous year with the sales of arms and word that more groups like this are growing. The Conserv talkers were pretty much patting themselves on the back that even during a recession they were able to get many of their listeners to buy an absurd amount of arms because of new leadership. Then when the group on the other side, feels concern over this they act like "it's not big deal". Conservs were bragging about it, hyping it. So it is happening, but when the other side also says it's happening and talk about the history and pattern when it does happen, Conservs want to downplay it.

Consevs/Repub are doing a very unsettling line dance. I haven't seen a side (be it Dem or Repub) in the past pander to the most extreme and crazy as I have seen the Repub doing now. When Dems started to get harassed by right-wing groups, the Repub said "Do it the right way, lets vote them out during election season". Which of course is sound advice. The problem is just a few days before the same protesters were screaming that the Dems were dictators and Repub leaders were literally hyping them up and calling this armageddon. Repub want it both ways, they want to hype the group up to a frenzy but don't want to take responsibility for it. Why didn't the Repub mentioned we have elections when the tea party started with this ridiculous dictator/king talk (gosh a single year of Dem rule is now a dictatorship)

Seeing similar reaction/ line dancing with these extreme groups, not as much as Repubs but certainly Conserv groups. It seems like a lot on the right-wing want to most unstable and wacked out among them to be viewed as the new normal.